#228 - Kane Horspool: Sketching the Soulful Journey of Trait the Artist.

When I sat down with Kane Horsepool, the artist  also known as Trait, we didn't just talk art; we ventured into the depths of personal growth, the struggle for authenticity, and the profound effects of integrating one's deepest values with creative pursuits. Kane’s candid reflections on mental health, his commitment to being a present husband and father, and his artistic process offer a stark view into the life of someone balancing the rigors of full-time work with an unquenchable need to create. His upcoming show at the Bad News Gallery in Wollongong promises to  be a true manifestation of an artist who is letting go…so they can grow.

We reminisce about formative influences, the sustenance we draw from passions like skateboarding, and the importance of local culture and grassroots environmental efforts. There’s links to the emotional growth that comes from confronting challenges head-on, and the unapologetic truth that one's well-being is paramount to creative success.

Kane shines a light on the transformative power of art in all its forms. So join us for a conversation that's as much about the art on the canvas as it is about the art of living a mindful, purposeful life.

Enjoy,
Shan

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Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:22

Hey, it's Shad here. This week I catch up with past guest friend, skateboarder, prolific artist. It's Mr Kane Horsepool, aka Trait, if you know his artwork. I love Kane's artwork. It really deals with life and death and there's a super authentic feel to it. Kane and I did a t-shirt collab a few years ago. He did a design for THT. It was so rad.

Speaker 2: 0:50

Kane feels really connected to the Australian natural environment so a lot of his artworks incorporate native Australian bird life. Kane has an art show coming up at the Bad News Gallery in Wollongong in May and obviously he wants to promote that. But his perspective on why he's doing an art show is so different. Actually, like last time I spoke to him, he feels this real desire to move away from that capitalist model of having to strive for wealth and monetary success. For him, showing his artwork at a gallery is part of the process of letting go of those particular pieces. So they've been seen. He can now let them go and then move on to his next project. He really wants to move out of his comfort zone and progress and I can see there's a lot of creative fire in him at the moment.

Speaker 2: 1:47

He had a lot to say. He speaks really openly about his mental health struggles. He speaks really openly about his desire to be the best husband, father and man he can be and I loved all that stuff and, again, anyone that has the courage to be really open about that in a public forum like respect and I know there's other people out there who have that same desire. So I hope you find the inspiration in his words. I know I did. I felt super relaxed around Kane and I always have, since I've known him because we grew up in the same sort of geographical area of Australia it's the South Coast of New South Wales and I really feel like there's something to be said about that because we've experienced the same seasons, the same weather patterns, temperatures, wind patterns. I don't know. You just feel more comfortable. I'm sure there's some sort of rational explanation to that. But anyway, enjoy getting to know Mr Kane Horsepool, aka Trait the dark art, the dark art.

Speaker 2: 3:18

Like it's never perfected right.

Speaker 3: 3:20

But like what's my wife call it Active listening is like the key to conversation, right? So if you can't do that active listening, you can't I have to really consciously think about it to actually have a conversation, because I'm shocking at small talk. I hate it. So it's like you have to be an active listener to create a conversation. So that's what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 3:47

Do you listen or do you wait your turn to speak?

Speaker 3: 3:50

Well, that's what active listening is. Right, you're listening and it's asking more questions, rather than just yeah, I've got my point and I'm going to wait until you're finished talking and then I'm going to say my point regardless of what you just said, which I'm pretty sure I've done, even if the topic's changed 100%. Yeah, yeah, I had a friend who was so bad at it you could see that he wasn't listening and you could literally say anything, and then he would just go back to what he was saying. Did you just hear me say purple elephants?

Speaker 2: 4:21

Like you weren't listening, purple elephants, do you feel like people's attention spans are shorter than ever?

Speaker 3: 4:31

I mean just from what I've seen, yeah, and.

Speaker 3: 4:34

I reckon that's in myself too. I think that's where I noticed it is in myself is yeah, you're just like something more than a minute here. You notice yourself wanting to wander, whereas before social media and all that I would have sat with that a lot longer because there was less coming in. You know, if someone's talking about skateboarding, I'm going to listen for more than a minute if it was in 2010 or whatever you know, whereas now it has to be very like on point to what I am about. Like, oh, this is boring, but then at the same time, I I hate that there's no, no one's making longer videos anymore. I love, I love sitting down and watch it for an hour, or especially within art and mural art and everything, they condense all these movies and uh videos into a minute. So it's good for social media.

Speaker 3: 5:26

Why isn't someone just filming for a year and then put it out Like Neytros, who's an artist from, I'm going to say, germany, he did it Follow the White Rabbit. It's one of my favorite films. I've watched it like a bunch of times and it's not even like my kind of style of art or anything, but just the long play. It's like why aren't people doing that, like. It's something I do want to do. It's just like compile footage for like a year and then make something Like you would with a skate vid back in the day right, but I think everyone's just too eager to get it out.

Speaker 2: 5:57

Why do you think they're too eager?

Speaker 3: 6:00

Well, I think you actually have to be Like it's. Something I've been thinking about is that I'm shocking at social media, like even coming up with this exhibition. I'm like all right, I need to start posting more. And I think I've posted less because I just if I've got something to show, I'll show it, but the algorithms are all screwed now so no one's going to see it. You know what I mean? What do you mean? They're all screwed. Well, what do you mean?

Speaker 3: 6:20

they're all screwed Well, like if you're posting all the time, then the algorithm helps, I'm assuming, like it helps you get seen more. And then people, oh, you've got to post at 5 o'clock on a Tuesday, like I'm just going to post when I got it and I don't use tags or any of that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it doesn't get seen as much. And so, unfortunately, I think people are kind of regurgitating a lot of short stuff straightaway rather than like quantity over quality.

Speaker 2: 6:52

Do you think it's also a fear of becoming irrelevant?

Speaker 3: 6:57

Maybe I can't speak for other people.

Speaker 2: 6:59

Do you have it? What about for yourself?

Speaker 3: 7:01

For myself. No, like, my thing now is just I'm only competing against myself, like it's yeah, yeah, it's something I've been kind of working with, probably since, like the pandemic really started focusing, focusing on it. And it's one thing that I always say I look forward to growing older and getting better at art. You know, like, yeah, we were talking about skating just before and how much longer we've got and everything. But I think as long as I keep myself healthy, I'm going to be able to paint until maybe 70, you know, if arthritis, who knows what gets me.

Speaker 3: 7:36

But I look at the artwork I was making 10 years ago and it was terrible, that painting behind me. I've actually repainted that. So I thought it was finished. I rolled it out it had been rolled up in KMS for a year put it out and went, oh, this is terrible because I've progressed so much within a year. So I've actually painted it, like it's pretty much finished now, but I repainted it. So if you think about what you were doing, especially in art, or like what we're talking about in podcasting, what you, if you listen to a podcast that you did a year ago, you're probably, oh man, that's terrible. Yeah, so for me it's just about progression for myself and making myself the only audience member that matters, if that makes sense. So, like you don't paint for the um anyone but yourself, if you don't enjoy it, then I'm pretty sure we talked about this, the last one did we maybe I'm having deja vu, yeah, maybe, but what?

Speaker 3: 8:34

yeah, it's something I've been trying to work at. And then I read rick rubin's book and I was like, oh, okay, it's all written down here, right, it's exactly what he was he's kind of. Is it good? Yeah, it's exactly what he was kind of. Is it good? Yeah, it's amazing. I was talking to someone about it and they said, like it's not, like it's anything new, it's something I already knew. But it's cemented those ideas and pushed it even further. Yeah, and gave it clarity. Yeah, that you take the audience just take the audience out of it. That's the last thing you think about it Once you've finished the artwork. Then you work out where's this going, what's it for?

Speaker 2: 9:11

Wow, interesting Because I've been having like asking myself some big picture questions about the podcast, for example. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:21

And why I do it and what the purpose is. Because it's a time investment and that's a very important commodity, right, yep, and I wanted to get my values with it right, and I guess I came to the conclusion that it has got a greater purpose for me in various ways. I won't go into it, but one thing I did stop doing was I stopped looking at the stats. I don't look at the numbers anymore. Yeah, good, it's funny that you brought that up again and it's funny, since I've stopped looking at the numbers, this has become a much more pure process for me and also much more fulfilling.

Speaker 2: 10:01

It doesn't feel like sometimes it can feel like a bit of a job, yeah, yeah. So I'm like, oh, I've got to chase these numbers.

Speaker 3: 10:04

It doesn't feel like sometimes it can feel like a bit of a job.

Speaker 2: 10:05

Yeah, yeah, so I'm like oh, I've got to chase these numbers.

Speaker 3: 10:07

It's more enjoyable now.

Speaker 2: 10:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah and I think ironically for me personally I'm becoming more satisfied with the quality.

Speaker 3: 10:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:17

And I guess it lines up with what you're saying.

Speaker 3: 10:19

Yeah, and what do you find as well? That if you're looking at the stats and the numbers, you'd be like, oh, those podcasts did really well. I need to do more of those Like, even if you did it subconsciously. And that's where, especially in art, I was stuck for a long time and I still have the sensors on and I have to take the sensor off where it's like, oh, they're not going to like that, or will people like that, or is this, can you do it? And it's just like no, no, get rid of that.

Speaker 3: 10:51

And I remember there was a. I remember specifically I had this idea and it was about I actually haven't made the artwork yet, stuff it. It was a fox holding a human hand in its mouth. I just had this image and I was like, oh, but you can't paint that. I was like, no, hang on, why? Why can't I? Because the audience at the time that were liking my work wouldn't have or I perceived wouldn't like that kind of more gory imagery.

Speaker 3: 11:19

But the funny thing is is, once I took those senses off and really started painting my own stuff more, more skulls and you know, ravens and snakes and all these kind of like imagery and stuff that I really enjoy. You find that people do love that stuff and the people that are actually more in tune with you enjoy it rather than, like you know, all the time when you're painting a mural, people will come and go. I like your stuff, but I don't like that graffiti. You know, like that kind of crowd and that's what. When we're talking about murals, like your briefs and everything, you're really watering down your art to get it over the line and get it approved and to get it on the wall, and so it's really watered down.

Speaker 3: 12:09

You can't paint a raven or a skull on a public mural. You're not going to get that over the line, and so then it starts getting into your head that that's what you meant. You, oh, you can't do that. But then you're like, look at all the artists I love, like that's what they're doing. Look at everyone's tattoos. You know what I mean. Like I've got a raven on my arm. I'm allowed to walk around with that on my arm, but I'm not allowed to paint it on a wall. But you can, it's just that it's not. You've got to find the wall. You've got to do the work yourself.

Speaker 2: 12:29

What do you? Mean you've got to do the work yourself.

Speaker 3: 12:31

Like you've got to find your own wall, okay, you've got to find other ways to do it.

Speaker 2: 12:34

Sacrifice money.

Speaker 3: 12:36

Yeah, yeah. So not look at it like a council mural specifically. A lot of the time it'll be. Sometimes it's to prevent graffiti, sometimes it's to what is it to like? Brighten up.

Speaker 3: 12:54

I'm trying to think of the actual words they'll say in the brief. Like you know, it's to engage the community and they have these just same things that are in every brief to try and get it on the wall and you'll get paid like pretty good money for it and it justifies doing it. You get, you know it's good coin. But if you go and paint a wall by yourself it is going to cost you. So you've got to try and find other ways to monetize it, just even if it's just in a way of paying for your paint, because you know, at the end of the day, the time I'm going to go paint up the skate park anyway, If you give me a wall, that's awesome, and you know I did one with Isle 6 recently.

Speaker 3: 13:34

They gave us a wall and then they did a T-shirt screen printing for me, you know. So it's kind of like that in kind and also it garnered like a great relationship I have now with shannon and those guys like trade. Yeah, that's right, old school trade, um, but that wall's there. So I took photos of it and everything and filmed bits of it. So there's still options to do stuff with it later. But it's just, you just just got to think differently. But getting that image out of my head and onto a wall, that's the best feeling in the world, is like, because it's something I was really passionate about. It wasn't watered down, it was a pretty dark image Like it's not bright and colourful, it's basically all grey with a bit of red. So being able to do that kind of stuff is pretty special.

Speaker 2: 14:28

Was it outside of your comfort zone?

Speaker 3: 14:31

No, no, if anything, it's more because you don't have to worry about all there being negative space, or I don't know.

Speaker 2: 14:39

So you felt like it was within your technical abilities.

Speaker 3: 14:43

Oh yeah, 100%. So that wasn't the concern, no, no, it's more the.

Speaker 2: 14:47

Was it less identifiable as a trait, for example?

Speaker 3: 14:52

I don't know. You'd have to ask other people. No, I think it's still like birds and the same elements.

Speaker 2: 14:57

You still knew it was identifiable as your work.

Speaker 3: 15:00

Yeah, it wasn't fully out there, Like it wasn't. Like if I got the skate park I would just paint a skull.

Speaker 2: 15:09

I was going to ask you this like death, and if something had jutted down like it seems like death is quite a common theme.

Speaker 3: 15:16

Yeah, a friend of mine, Luke Wynn. Luke, ok, he pointed out to me one day he's like your work deals with life and death. I was like, oh, that wasn't conscious, no, that was completely subconscious, but now it's conscious and so I do like to bring in those elements. Like, I'm going to do a mural next week, hopefully, and it has a bird skull as well as feathers and a flower, and you know, it is that kind of life and death. Yeah, and it was completely unconscious, but it's like, all right, I kind of enjoy that now. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:52

You work full-time as well? Yeah, now, that means stable income.

Speaker 3: 15:57

Yep.

Speaker 2: 15:58

And you know supporting a family is very necessary and a lot of artists sacrifice that stability. Do you find it gives you an element of freedom with your artwork? A hundred percent. Because you can say no to jobs.

Speaker 3: 16:12

Yeah, and that's one thing I've been focusing on a lot lately is that do I really need to justify making money from art? And especially looking in on what I've been doing lately and like reading Rick Rubin's book and all that, it's about the self-discovery as an artist. Like that's what's most important and what is more important to me is to become the best artist I can be, rather than make a living off it. You know, make a living off it. It would be cool to like work on constructive stuff every day and different projects and I have a million ideas in my head and it's so frustrating because I know I'll never be able to put them out. But then at the same time, it's like I also enjoy the work I do and it also comes into the artwork. The conservation work that I've been doing for 20 years is part of the artwork.

Speaker 2: 17:08

So it's a form of inspiration.

Speaker 3: 17:10

If I was in this studio three days a week and maybe painting a mural every second week or whatever, I'd miss it. If I was in the studio every day, I'd go mental. Yeah. Even though it's like my own little space and I can play my own music and I'm surrounded by, I would get nuts.

Speaker 2: 17:28

I was going to ask you that Like does the full-time work detract away from your creative energy?

Speaker 3: 17:34

It does, it does.

Speaker 2: 17:35

Because there's a physical element to what you do.

Speaker 3: 17:37

Yeah, and especially with kids and everything. So you know it's a physical job which I enjoy. I don't like being in office, um, but yeah, by the time the kids go to bed and then have like an hour to paint at night, and there's some days where it's just like, oh, I'm just gonna have some ice cream and sit on the couch so you've told me in the past that you try to draw something every single day yeah, I do, and I've also not put as much a burden on myself as well.

Speaker 3: 18:08

Now, yeah, I remember saying that, um, because it is one of those things like you're, you're making a rule, you know, you give yourself a bit of freedom. If you don't feel like drawing, don't draw. If you're on the phone to someone and there's a pen and a pad in front, I'm gonna doodle, like it's just natural. I'm terrible in meetings because I'm not paying attention, because I'm just drawing. I've gotten a few funny looks off of bosses and stuff sometimes, especially when you start getting into something. But that's the thing, like, if I don't feel like drawing, then I'm not going to beat myself up about it. But then also, as I remember saying on the last podcast was, there is times when I'm exhausted, I'm tired. There's so many different elements I have, though. So I've got bigger paintings I can do behind me. I've also got a drawing I'm working on in one of those drawers, and then I've also got compositions that I muck around on Photoshop, so I can say, okay, I don't feel like drawing, I'm just going to go muck around in the compositions, and I do enjoy that stuff. But yeah, so, and as I said on the other podcast.

Speaker 3: 19:18

It's sometimes like, okay, I'll just go do five minutes, or I'll just go and do some scribble, and an hour later you're like, oh shit, I've got to go to bed.

Speaker 3: 19:25

So there is little tricks to get you going. Or or even sometimes like, oh, I've got a cool podcast to listen to or an audio book, I'm just gonna go put that on while you draw, yeah, or just and just hang out. Sometimes I'll just pick up an art book or a skate mag and I'll just flick through that. And it's still, I think, as I'm taking those rules off, it's like I still see that as being it's part of the practice and the process, because it's still all part of the craft that inspires me. So I can come out here and look through an old skate mag for half an hour and not even draw, but still feel like I'm being creative, which is weird in a way it's like formulating ideas Not in formulating ideas, but just this is why I do it right, um, because the other side, like you said, like, come down where I live, like it's beautiful, I love living here, but I'm also separated away from the culture and everything.

Speaker 3: 20:17

Like majority of my friends are in wulungong. The art scene that I really love is in wulungong. I don't really get up there as much. You do feel very isolated, but I can pick up a thrasher mag and feel, oh no, this is what I'm part of. Like this is probably not the best way to say it?

Speaker 2: 20:31

No, I get it Like it reminds you, like it grounds you.

Speaker 3: 20:35

It grounds you. Yeah, okay, a hundred percent.

Speaker 3: 20:46

Because you can be surrounded by the white picket fences and all the keeping up with the joneses bullshit, um, that you get in kiama keeping up with the jones beaches, joneses beaches, um. But, um, I've always said, like I don't, I've never really fit in in kiama, but like I love the place, I've got amazing friends, I'm not gonna cry and no, no, no, it's just, I've just always been a little bit different and that's what's attracted me to skating. And then I found kiama skate park. Oh, there's all these other misfits that live in the same fucking town I do. This is amazing. So that's what got me. I've always drawn since a kid, but once I found skating, that's what really got those creative gears going, and it was skateboarders that introduced me to graffiti and to street art and stencils and all that shit.

Speaker 2: 21:27

Graphics on skateboards.

Speaker 3: 21:32

And then I reckon 100%, like I still remember the graphic on my first skateboard. I don't even know what the board was or some weird no-name board, but I can see the freaking graphic. But it wasn't one of those things. Like I've heard other graphic, like I walked in the skate shop and I was just here Like it wasn't as that for me, but I do remember going into the skate shop and then there was graffiti mags and there was like it was everything in one. You know, it's just like oh my God, this place is so fucking cool. Yeah, it just got me fired.

Speaker 2: 22:00

Can you describe that artwork that's behind you directly for the listeners? Because this is an audio-only podcast, can you just give a visual?

Speaker 3: 22:08

description. Yeah, so the one behind me, if I was just to give a basic description, it's a hand-holding, what I believe is a child's skull with three birthday candles coming out of the skull. So that piece, I actually found the image first. A lot of the time I'll just find a photo or find something like and I'm just like, oh, that's fucking epic. Is it a photo? Yeah, it's a photo. So it's actually. I believe it's um Cambodia, um, so Pol Pot, and um, you know, with the, basically the genocide of well, not not genocide, sorry, because I went wiping out a race it was an attempted genocide.

Speaker 3: 22:48

Well, they weren't wiping out a race, but they almost did. But yeah, the Pol Pot regime, and there's just those. They've just got all the skulls because they do. They try to so the next generation doesn't forget about it. But anyway, I was reading about it in a magazine or something and I saw that image. And as soon as I saw that image I was like and I was painting a lot of hands at the time I was just like that's insane. And then I got the idea. I was like, oh, it almost looks like he's holding a birthday cake. And so then that, just that was the idea and it sat as a sketch in my book for years.

Speaker 2: 23:22

And potentially that's a three-year-old skull size.

Speaker 3: 23:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:27

To add to the reality of it.

Speaker 3: 23:30

That's it. Yeah, so it makes it a lot heavier, kind of thing, yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:35

Is that for sale?

Speaker 3: 23:36

Yeah, yeah, everything will be for sale.

Speaker 2: 23:39

So that will be included in your upcoming art show.

Speaker 3: 23:41

Yeah, well, if it makes the cut.

Speaker 2: 23:46

Oh right.

Speaker 3: 23:47

Have you got an abundance of work? Yeah, I've got a fair few here, and I've also got larger pieces, so the space isn't that big. But that's kind of cool in a way is that I'm going to just take a heap of stuff up, throw it on the wall, see what works. If it doesn't work, roll it back up and use it again later. You know, like I don't have to like use it right then and there, and because selling the work isn't the goal, it doesn't bother me.

Speaker 3: 24:12

I'd rather just I remember that saying when to a friend like I'd rather just put works on the wall and then like sit in a floor in the middle and just drink a six-pack by myself and stare at them. You know, but I'm not drinking now, so just drink a couple of zeros and eat some ice cream and just drink a six-pack by myself and stare at them. You know, but I'm not drinking now, so just drink a couple of zeros and eat some ice cream and just sit there and just look at it myself. You know, because that's for me that's the most. That's the bit I love about exhibiting work is seeing it up on the wall.

Speaker 2: 24:37

So I was going to ask so why are you doing it? Is that the primary purpose? You're just feeling compelled at the moment.

Speaker 3: 24:43

Yeah, I enjoy creating things, I enjoy working on projects and so it's making a solo exhibition is almost like a. I see it as like a stepping stone. It's like the first solo exhibition I made. I really liked some of the works I made. No one turned up, no one didn't sell anything, but things came out of that that progressed forward. Um had a couple other little things and then last got a big solo show, went really well, sold a lot of works, but I wasn't happy with the work it was. That thing was a very um kind of dumbed down pg you know. So for me it's like it's just that building blocks or stepping stones is like the next thing is about were you trying to conform a little in that one?

Speaker 3: 25:29

I think so because you're like oh, this I was painting a lot of murals at the time and I was getting it's more palatable, yeah, yeah yeah, and so there's the people who enjoy the murals. They came to the exhibition, they bought the work. You know what I mean? Right, which is if you were to be a commercial artist, that's like that's successful. But I was just, I didn't. It didn't feel real, didn't feel right. Interesting, yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:52

Okay, so this time.

Speaker 3: 25:53

I'd rather have no red dots and no sold artworks. But look at the work and go, this is me 100%. You know, like this is a part of me that I'm putting out there and, to be honest, I reckon I'll still be like, nah, I still held back. I think I still there's not quite. There's a couple of pieces where I'm like super pumped on, yeah, and then there's a couple where I'm like, oh, that's an interesting like start. There's a start there. Okay, you know you keep following that.

Speaker 2: 26:23

You get out of that rabbit hole, start. There's a start there.

Speaker 3: 26:25

Okay, you know you keep following that, you get out of that rabbit hole. Yeah, yeah, interesting. I was just watching that guy richie uh tv series the gentleman, so obviously, yeah. So he made the movie the gentleman and now he's made a tv series, but obviously because he just had so many fucking ideas and he was like, oh, I can go further with this oh, is it worth watching? Oh yeah, it's awesome.

Speaker 3: 26:40

I've never seen it I only watched the first episode night, but I appreciate that so much because it's like, as an artist, you're like you make a painting once and it's like you're not supposed to do it again, right yeah. Whereas like a musician, they have a great song, they get to play that one song, they can redo it in different ways or whatever, but as an artist, you're like you made that painting, that idea, that's it. Walk away. I said no, no, I don't want to do it, I want to keep delving in and just have it you know, see where it takes you.

Speaker 2: 27:07

Yeah, have another go at it. Because you've been doing art for so long, do you feel like you've developed an intuitive sense as to when to let it go, when to let an idea go, or when you know that an actual piece is complete?

Speaker 3: 27:23

There's a saying in art that an artwork's never finished, it's abandoned because you can just keep going. You can just keep. And especially the way I paint, I could just keep fiddling for ages and you've got to step back and go. You know those brushstrokes you've been working on for the last 20 minutes. You can't even see it. It doesn't matter, yeah. But in terms of ideas, oh, and that's hard, like I don't know if I've ever walked away from an idea and go. I'm never gonna do that again. There's definitely projects and things I'm like okay, I'm never doing that again, but an idea, I'd have to think about that, for if I'm gonna ponder on that, you get attached to the piece yeah, I do, but I don't.

Speaker 3: 28:04

I've never had had. I know some artists have had trouble with letting stuff go, like selling work, putting it for sale. I've had friends who make amazing work and you put them in a group show and they're like, oh no, I can't, it's not for sale. But what are you going to do with it? Just let it go. I'm happy with letting it go and even if it doesn't sell, I'm happy with like, I've got paintings in this show. There's another painting underneath it. I'll just paint over the top once it's done, once it's shown, once it's out in the world, that's, it's free. I've let it go. I can. Just I could throw it on the fire if I was cold and I needed burning, like it's a waste of raw material, but yeah, but um, that's gnarly, yeah, yeah, I've definitely got pieces in this show that there's Like it's a waste of raw material. Yeah, that's gnarly, yeah, yeah, I've definitely got pieces in this show that there's another painting underneath. Yeah, because it's like, hey, that's a good wood canvas, just sand it down, paint it and go again.

Speaker 2: 28:57

I know a guy in Bali. He's a Californian artist. He lives there and he does this dot artwork very similar to Australian Indigenous art. But he's from California and when he first started doing the dots he may have been influenced but not realised that he was. Yeah right subconscious, and then it wasn't until he started doing it, one of his art teachers goes. That's like Australian Indigenous art. And he's like oh wow, you know, so he was obsessed with it.

Speaker 2: 29:21

But he took it to another level. He's got a yoga background and you know he goes into this deep state of meditation, folds his legs so he loses circulation to his legs, so all the blood is in his upper body and does these really refined dots?

Speaker 2: 29:33

We're talking, you know thousands and no two dots ever touch, you know, and we're talking about it. And then he you know from what I understand, I mean I see them. They're profound when you see them in real life and in demand a little bit. But he's made mention to how he just becomes so attached to the piece because he works on them. He has one piece he's worked on for four years and I'm like I don't know how good that like this is why I'm going to ask you this like is this why some artists become like tortured artists Because of that attachment?

Speaker 3: 30:09

Oh, I think there's a lot of other things there Like what I mean straight off. I think the tortured artist thing is it goes deeper than that that as children we're taught to do art and play and everything and then that's kind of beaten out of you by society and that, no, that's what kids do, and so artists are constantly justifying to themselves that you are allowed to go and play. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 30:35

You can go and play and just create and be yourself. That's my understanding of the tortured artist is someone who's trying to live inside a modern society and be a creative soul, which is really difficult. But then that's that's my thought, you know.

Speaker 2: 30:50

You know there's could be anything, all right, so yeah aside from, obviously, aesthetic beauty, what else do you think art brings to a society?

Speaker 3: 31:02

well, man, that's an interesting one, because that's another one I just think about all the time is like if you really took society down and what is actually necessary? Does art come into that, you know? But I have seen the positivity that art can bring, especially like the mural projects and even graffiti, for me Positivity.

Speaker 2: 31:24

in what way, though?

Speaker 3: 31:25

Well, for me. I see it, it gets me, it fills my cup, it makes my day when I see like an awesome piece. Actually, we were just in Orange visiting my Relos and I come across a mural there. Artist I found out later, I have heard of her, but that mural just it got me so much and these days, like as we were saying before, like a lot of murals don't really jump out.

Speaker 2: 31:49

It got you in what way Like? Inspired you.

Speaker 3: 31:51

It inspired me, yeah, super inspiring, and just yeah, I was staring at it and just got right up close looking at all the mark making and I guess I'm looking at it from another creative. But I also know that from what you know. Especially when you're painting mural festivals, that's one of the greatest things about painting murals is you're just, you're in the public. You're not in the studio painting by yourself. You're literally people watching you paint and they will just come up and tell you how great it is and how. And then you'll hear afterwards like I love that mural, I walk past it every day. It feels a love story and you can see that it makes their day better. Is it necessary in society? Like, I don't know, but I think creativity is 100% necessary.

Speaker 2: 32:31

Yeah, I mean, I look at some of your earlier work, there's political undertones. You know like I often think of that one and you made it to a sticker and you gave me the sticker. I think I stuck it on my bag, on my podcast case and it's the Raven standing on the Australian newspaper I mean for me personally, like what I feel like your art, an art piece like that does for society, is that it's opening up broader conversations.

Speaker 2: 32:58

Yeah, you know, because I look at that and like, oh, what's this symbolising? Is this symbolising the dark side of the media and how they perpetuate fake, false information or bias agendas? You know yeah yeah, 100%. I mean are these things you're considering?

Speaker 3: 33:18

Yeah, well, to be honest, stuff like that it's more a release for myself is to get it out, to get out that kind of anger like I was well, yeah, anger and frustration like I was brought up on kind of left-wing um politics and then I took on my kind of left-wing revolutionary politics and and so once you start becoming quite conscious of from a young age I was reading, you know, john Pilger and Nelson Mandela books and stuff so you read about all the injustices and it makes you very angry and my work was a lot more.

Speaker 3: 33:51

Actually, the earlier stencil art stuff before I started exhibiting was quite confronting and full on because it was just a release of this young 20-something angst, you know. And now it's yeah, it's still a release, but it's, I think. Then it was like you know, like say something like what's happening in Palestine, I would be like I have to make an artwork about this, whereas now it's like no, just let it, it'll ooze through, it'll come through, don't force it. Because I think then I thought I was educating people Like I'll paint this like stencil and people will know about what's happening because you're kind of naive.

Speaker 2: 34:31

Are you going to make social change?

Speaker 3: 34:33

Yeah, I think I had, you know, but I think, as an artist, that's not your job. Your job is to comment and you know it depends Like. So I really love hip-hop, grew up on hip-hop, and one thing I'm very jealous of them is that you know it depends. So I really love hip-hop, grew up on hip-hop, and one thing I'm very jealous of them is that you know, listen to someone like Sage Francis or Brother Ali or Black Thought or Briggs. They can tell a whole story. They can bring a lot of information to a song.

Speaker 3: 34:57

You can't really do that in an artwork. You can't dictate to people. You know, you can only bring a feeling, okay, but that feeling can still be quite strong. You know, if you look at those Gaza unmuted artworks that people are painting, that's really powerful, that can stir emotion, and I think that's what it's about. And it's also that thing of um, you know, somebody paints something that brings that emotion but it also makes you feel like, oh, you're part of that or there's other people who feel the same as I do. You know, I'm not alone in those thoughts, you know. So I think it's more that kind of stuff, whereas I mean, I guess you look at scotty marsh's murals and he can kind of bring a bit more than just emotion. He can. Can, yeah, he's. Sometimes he does bring a. He probably does sway people's opinion on some of the stuff he does, but it's quite hard, I think.

Speaker 2: 35:55

I just like how it opens up conversations with people that may be reluctant to have certain conversations, especially when it is delicate, you know, like some of the things you just mentioned, or people that want to sit on the fence and be complicit. I think it can compel them to maybe take a stand on something as well and inspire that. Yeah, I think so. I mean, art's done that forever.

Speaker 3: 36:22

I think so, and you've got to look at it in all different contexts. I mean, look at the murals painted on the wall in Palestine, you know. Or if you look at stuff like you know, not to rave on, but like you know Banksy's done in the past, I do know, like the bird panels that I did on Town Hall, I repainted them, oh, you did. And I always get comments from people about the one that has the rainbow flag on it.

Speaker 2: 36:47

Yeah, was that wrapped in the falcon? No?

Speaker 3: 36:50

I think that's the seagull.

Speaker 2: 36:52

Oh, sorry, that's all right, it's wrapped.

Speaker 3: 36:55

Because I originally did them as like an ode to protesters and they said they were faded and they wanted me just to repaint them, basically just touch up the paint. I'm like, no, I'm gonna redo the whole thing. And so there was still an ode to protest, but they were kind of like different protests. There's like lock the gate and there's like the umbrella protest from hong kong, and you know they do have different, there's different symbolism. So then just putting in the you know, the gay pride flag, that was just kind of a different protest or a different element. But I get a lot of people commenting on that one especially, and it's very humbling to feel that you have actually inspired people in their struggle. You know I'm an ally and I'll do what I can, but it's their struggle, you know, and so it's great to be able to maybe contribute in a tiny way, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 37:48

So that feeling it's like that, almost like the gift of giving, like it feels great, you know yeah bro, yeah, that's so good. In a way it's yeah, that's a kind of like that release, you know.

Speaker 2: 38:00

Like being of service in some way.

Speaker 3: 38:02

Yeah, in a way yeah. That's rad. I haven't thought of it that way, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:07

Did you get to the Banksy exhibition in Sydney recently?

Speaker 3: 38:10

No, no, I didn't. I forgot about that. Okay, to be honest, I grew up especially when I was doing stencils like I've got his book there, wall and pieces somewhere, massive fan, but it's like there's a lot of people doing amazing stuff, but he was the name that everyone knows it's. It's a kind of like, you know, when you, as a skateboarder, like people like oh do you know, tony Hawk, it's like you know. Nigel.

Speaker 2: 38:34

Euston, it's the one artist, the one one they know. Right, it's the one skateboarder.

Speaker 3: 38:37

Yeah, it's the one, he's that guy, the one straight artist, they know.

Speaker 2: 38:40

So but I'm not as familiar with the art world as I am with skateboarding world. Did Banksy break down a lot of walls and open the gates for artists?

Speaker 3: 38:51

There was a lot of people at that time doing it. Yeah, I think he was one of the best doing it and he was really pushing it and what he was making was kind of like easily understood, you know, gotcha Whereas there was a lot of people like Shepard Fairley, who was leaning a lot on kind of like the pop art and repetition that comes from graffiti and stuff like that, you know, like D-Face, and there's so many swoon doing their own things. But his was kind of like easier to understand and also he did go big, like he went everywhere, like it was insane.

Speaker 2: 39:27

There's no like hate, it's just.

Speaker 3: 39:31

No, no, no. I mean, I'm sure there is Like, I'm sure there's toes that he's trod on along the way, but yeah, it's just one of those things that everyone kind of brings up. But you know, I still occasionally get the book out and flick through it and get inspired, but I think artistically he hasn't really evolved.

Speaker 3: 39:51

Oh, okay, you know what I mean, Whereas if you look at some of the other people from that era, like people I mentioned, like D-Face and Swoon, and you look at what they're doing now and they've just evolved so far, Haven't they? Yeah, and then you look at like Australian guys, like Roan, Like Roan was starting off doing stencils, and then look at him now Like it's just insane, painting the inside of like complete buildings and just yeah, go on next level you know, yeah, recently you were a featured artist in the Wonderwall's mural festival.

Speaker 2: 40:20

Yeah, there was no competition element to that was there. Is there Competition? Well, the murals aren't like. Voted upon no, no. So can you give us some background as to what it's?

Speaker 3: 40:34

about and how you got involved. Yeah, well, I mean, I think that was his 11th year running. Um, so big shout out to simon grant. What I think he's done with the mural festival in Wollongong is really I always say, with Wonderwalls and yours and ours has just progressed the creative culture in Wollongong and put it on the map. In a way. Wollongong has some world-class mural artists. Wollongong and Port Kemlan are murals. That's insane. You can walk around Wollongong and see world-class mural artists. Wollongong and Port Kemblen are murals. Like that's insane. You can walk around Wollongong and see like and I still trip, oh yeah, there's a Guido just there. You know what I mean A couple of smugs, like you know. Like I was saying before, case McLean and I could just go on and on about some of the big names and that's amazing that it's been running for so long bringing something. So yeah, I was on it 2013.

Speaker 1: 41:32

So that was very early on, that was 11 years ago.

Speaker 3: 41:34

Yeah, so it was 10 years 10 years, 10 years, so it was awesome to get back in, to get on it, yeah, and so it's just like a kind of honor to be asked to paint in in a festival like that that has so much recognition, not just here but internationally as well yeah, can you explain the significance of the growth of the, of these kind of things, to an area such as wulungong?

Speaker 2: 42:04

so for those aren't aware, like this isn't like a big city, it's not an inner city space, it's a relatively small population. So can you explain why it's significant to the area, then?

Speaker 3: 42:17

Well, the mural festivals are actually easier to put on in a smaller city. Are they yeah so? Melbourne's only just had its first ever mural festival. Sydney had one at Cockatoo Island so long ago, I thought that was like a regular up there.

Speaker 3: 42:33

It's kind of like they definitely would do things but it's harder to do in a bigger city. So that's why regional cities tend to have them, because it's kind of easier to get it done and for people to walk around and it to be and logistically, man, like you've got scissor lifts and people in and out, like it's hard enough to organise one wall in a city, let alone multiple, at the same time. That's why Paul Campbell is great, because there's so much space and there's so many walls and you can get it done.

Speaker 3: 43:02

And there's like permissions you've got to get, there's all sorts of legalities right 100%, and there'd be way more Like Simon would be a lot better to talk about it. But also, wonderwalls was one of the earlier mural festivals, when it just got started, so there, I think Cockatoo Island might have been just before it, but there wasn't many and so it was kind of one of the first. They were kind of breaking ground in a way, and especially if you look at the first year, the artists they had on it were just insane. Like the line-up was next level and then it just kept getting better and better and better. So that, yeah, I think what he's done is not just amazing for the area but also helped that kind of mural festival scene.

Speaker 3: 43:46

Okay, and now there's a mural festival in pretty much every kind of regional, larger town, city you know, throughout the world, not just Australia. Like it's insane how many there are that just become a staple because it's such an interesting way to engage the population, not just at the time, but the murals are there. So, as I said, you can still wander through Wollongong and see murals that were painted 10 years ago. Like you know, 10 years on, like they're still there. They weren't painted over.

Speaker 3: 44:19

No, they're still engaging, like some of them have been, but like you, look at Roan's one across from, I don't know, his amigo is still there. I don't know but that and that was one of the.

Speaker 2: 44:30

Is it a girl's face? Yeah, it's a girl's face, but that was also one of his.

Speaker 3: 44:35

He was just starting to get out of stencils and starting to go big, so I think that was like at the time, that was his biggest wall, that was his biggest wall, gotcha. So there was him just getting kind of started on that, you know, and then, yeah, it's still there.

Speaker 2: 44:49

And that was from the first Wonderwall. It's like a girl's face with like big red hair. From memory.

Speaker 3: 44:53

Oh, big red lips Big red lips. Yeah, I remember him like painting with brooms and shit.

Speaker 2: 44:58

Yeah. Yeah, it just spins me out how accurate they get some of those portraits on a big wall. Yeah, it spins me how accurate they get some of those portraits on a big wall.

Speaker 3: 45:06

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's a process to that.

Speaker 2: 45:07

Yeah, like when I say accurate in terms of like the dimensions.

Speaker 3: 45:10

Yeah, perspective, perspective, is that what you call it? Perspective? Yeah, so like Roan kind of broke down a lot of that before people were gridding up.

Speaker 3: 45:21

So like you would do on a you probably did it school you did the grids and then you do it and you and I remember doing grids and I suck at maths and I hated trying to work out how many. Okay, so I got eight squares on my a4 sheet of paper. How do I get eight, eight squares on this 30 meter wall kind of thing? Whereas he came up with a process where it's people called chicken scratches or roaning and you basically just do heaps of just little marks all over the wall. Take a photo of it and on your phone or on your computer you overlay your image over the top of that photo and you drop the opacity so you can see all those little marks all over the wall in your image.

Speaker 2: 46:00

To get the perspective correct. Perspective. So then now you lift up, so say I know some people would do like, so they don't have one big, weird wonky eye yeah exactly.

Speaker 3: 46:08

Yeah, I know some people would do like ABC. I just do a bunch of scribbles, so you know it's like okay, from this X to this squiggle over here is this line between the eye, Okay.

Speaker 2: 46:20

You're not like a purist who's against the use of technology in that kind of art.

Speaker 3: 46:25

No, I mean, there's definitely people who hate on people using projectors and say, oh, it's cheating. But I think you're actually making it harder for yourself because you have to go and project at night, you've got to have extension cords and you've got to bring in all this crap, you know, whereas I just need my phone.

Speaker 2: 46:46

Wow, and I can just, and you're just like holding your phone going yeah, that looks about right so.

Speaker 3: 46:51

Oh no, you've marked up your chicken scratches and lined it up, so yeah, okay, so it's just on my phone and then I just sketch it out.

Speaker 2: 46:58

What about the use of AI in art?

Speaker 3: 47:01

Yeah, a lot of people are really worried about that, but again, I think that's like a commercial thing, right? So, yeah, I remember someone posted, uh, an artist on you and she posted the thing that said, like it was obviously the conversation between her and a client, and it said, oh, we're, we're just going to put a hold on it because we're, what is it? We're exploring the prospect of using ai, you know, and she's like you know, I'm not scared, you're scared, um, but I think ai has a long way to go before I can compete with an artist like a true artist, and there's definitely been used. There was a classic that come out. There was a bank ad with the skateboard you see that and the trucks are sideways. It's the best man Because of how I mess it up, yeah, but no one checked it. It's so good, but in terms of a mural, like, how is that going to work?

Speaker 2: 47:56

What about in terms of, like, developing concept ideas?

Speaker 3: 47:59

I remember I tried because I do muck around with, obviously, with what I'm dealing with, you know. So I need I've got this idea say it has like a water bird in a certain position, you know. So I actually was like I'm going to have a go at this AI and just have a play, and so I was like I want a heron with its beak open. I think that's all I wrote, and the things I got back were just so absurd. I'm like, oh, that doesn't work. I'll just have to keep doing it the way I do it, which I enjoy. I was just more having a look to see. I think it's like the projector thing it's more work than just doing it.

Speaker 3: 48:38

The traditional way, oh no shortcuts, you're actually making it harder for yourself. But I've got a quote on the wall there that a mate wrote Art is what you. No, no, it's not that one Art is what you get away with. I think that's a Warhol one yeah. But there's no cheating in art.

Speaker 3: 48:56

No cheating in art I think that's the quote and it's true. You could look at what warhol did and just I just took a campbell soup can and just screen printed it. It's like yeah, but you're missing it. You're missing the idea he made.

Speaker 2: 49:11

He took something every day and turned it into something iconic my friend who was an art teacher at my first ever teaching job said to me art is um on a certain style of art is like. Art is like if you like art, is you saying I could have done that, but you didn't.

Speaker 3: 49:31

Yeah, I was like that's cool. You've probably heard that before.

Speaker 2: 49:34

Yeah, yeah, it's like I could have done that, but you didn't Like that's art.

Speaker 3: 49:36

I remember saying that to my mum, like she would take us through art galleries when we were kids. It's a black canvas, yeah it. And black canvas, yeah, it's just a black canvas I could have done that I'm just going, but you didn't and I was just like damn, I didn't.

Speaker 2: 49:51

But I kind of feel like if I had just done like a black canvas, it wouldn't have been interesting, like it wouldn't have popped off, is it?

Speaker 3: 50:02

because that person has to have some kind of credibility to start with, and then now you're getting into highbrow and you're getting into modern art. I remember I took my wife to a modern art gallery in Turkey and I was like this will be a laugh. And we're just walking around. She's like what the fuck? What is this? This is modern art. Every artwork needs like a book to go with it to explain it.

Speaker 3: 50:22

Because I studied fine art, so I kind of know both sides of it and I much prefer lowbrow art. Yeah, but yeah, that's highbrow you know yeah. And that's yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:32

Is that what they call highbrow? Because like, do you know, marty Baptist, yeah, yeah, yeah, artist I'd still consider him lowbrow, but he does fine art. Well, that's what I was going to ask you Help me define his work, because he's become really popular in the last few years.

Speaker 3: 50:46

Yeah, yeah, he's in demand, I mean.

Speaker 2: 50:48

He can do really like detailed pieces, but then every now and then he'll do these big text pieces and he'll write things on a big canvas, just in his style of handwriting.

Speaker 3: 50:58

Yeah, and he pops off. I haven't seen his more later work. I guess I'd have to have a look.

Speaker 2: 51:04

And that's it, and that's all it is. And I look and I go. Well, I could have done that, but I didn't.

Speaker 3: 51:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:12

I mean, that's just my idea of what lowbrow and highbrow is. So that's lowbrow. I don't know.

Speaker 3: 51:15

I don't know, I don't understand See there's no real yeah, and see, some people would determine my work as actually highbrow, not. Whereas if you think of like the doodles and stuff that like Passport use or those, yeah, that's lowbrow or like so it doesn't mean it's less detailed.

Speaker 2: 51:34

Your works can be quite detailed so that's the detail.

Speaker 3: 51:37

I just more think about the audience that that enjoys it. Okay, you know what I mean. They're not the ones that are going to go to a fine art gallery. That is all you know real. And I enjoy walking into fine art galleries and looking at the paintings and breaking down their technique, because I'm just a fan of art. But I'd much rather go to the gallery that has a bunch of like kind of dudes out the front drinking VBs and it's. You know, it's more the audience that I really enjoy. That I kind of put as a highbrow and lowbrow. Okay, you know, like the gallery in Boweral versus the gallery in Crown Street, wollongong. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 52:16

The gallery in Boweral. That's the money, that's the cash money, that's the money. Job right, yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think of this there.

Speaker 3: 52:21

That's the money job, right? Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think there's one in Milton. That's a fine art gallery, but I actually really like the artists that get in there. Okay, but it's just funny. I'll also go and check out this. Walk into the tattoo studio and flick through their books, too, to look at their art, right, yeah, I love going into tattoo art parlours and just looking through the art. That's right. Yeah, because tattoos would be considered like lowbrow, right, but look at the detail and stuff in it, so it's more the audience.

Speaker 2: 52:50

Right, you grew up in one of the most geographically beautiful areas of the world, in my opinion, and I'm from the south coast as well originally, and actually driving in here just brought back all these childhood memories, even though I grew up probably another 45 minutes south down in Nara, but still this whole zone coastal and I've got a lot of childhood memories.

Speaker 2: 53:16

And it's also one of the best surf zones in the world. What do you think upon reflection? That you did feel like somewhat of an outcast and didn't gravitate towards like your typical surfer, dude and fall into that lifestyle.

Speaker 3: 53:30

I think it would have just been. It's all environmental, it's got to be environmental. But I guess the way mum raised me unquestioned everything I don't know it's what I was drawn to. I remember I still listened to punk and everything when I was young, but I remember really being drawn to hip-hop when none of my mates really listened to hip-hop. Um, I was mad into basketball, so that might have helped, but a lot of kids were into basketball. Um. And then, growing up, bodyboarding everybody started surfing and I kind of just stuck with bodyboarding and then going mystics, because it was just I still go

Speaker 3: 54:04

mystics, like it's the best way. It's so much fun on a lid, um, insane. And I think, just I don't know. I think maybe I've always been someone who's comfortable doing what I want to do. I don't need to follow the crowd. Like I'm comfortable in my own skin, I'm comfortable spending time with myself like I don't need, whereas I know, growing up I had friends who were saying, oh, like, I don't. Like I don't like being by myself, or I don't like when we're made three, I'm like, oh, that's at the time was such a weird concept for me. Like, oh, no, I'm happy to go and just skate in a car park for myself. Dude, like, if everyone else is doing that, I'm gonna do what I really want to do.

Speaker 2: 54:42

I was going to lead into like is it because it was nurtured by your parents?

Speaker 3: 54:47

I'd say so. Mum always made us said question everything oh did she. Yeah, yeah, she was real big on that. And I'm saying with my girls is I question everything? I think, mum especially, just let us be ourselves. Yeah. You know it's a bit. She wasn't. Yeah, you know she wasn't. And also, mum didn't grow up with much. Dad grew up at Orange so he didn't know anything of the culture that we were growing up in. You know, he grew up on a farm.

Speaker 3: 55:13

You know he was into cars and building stuff and I definitely picked up a lot of traits from him, but just wasn't interested in the same thing. Yeah, and so it was just find your own niche. You know, like I remember I was obsessed with basketball, then I got obsessed with bodyboarding and then I got obsessed with skateboarding.

Speaker 3: 55:30

You know, it's just, you just and then obsessed with art and then art and but I feel like I don't differentiate skateboarding and art. Boom, it's, it's the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like we'll say before about, uh, drawing, if I've gone for a skate in the day, I don't feel as like I have to go and draw because I've been creative, I've already like, played with style and all that shit. So even though I can't even see my skateboard, there's no style.

Speaker 2: 55:59

This is really interesting because, you know, we're often a product of our environment and our area and our influences. So that's why I'm kind of intrigued.

Speaker 3: 56:08

Yeah, like I didn't. I guess the big things in Kymar that most people growing up with was surfing, footy and fishing yeah, and I wasn't in. Like I still, I got surfboards and I'll muck around, but I was just mad into bodyboarding, which and it's still in the ocean every day. And you still you, I was just mad into bodyboarding, which, man, it's still in the ocean every day. You just want to get barreled? Yeah, it's just riding waves in a different way. I don't really get into the beef thing, but that's why I don't beef on scooter riders or rollerbladers or any shit. Like I haven't raced a skate with a rollerblader, I'm just like fuck man, if you want to get down, get down.

Speaker 2: 56:40

Dude, I'm with that too. Actually, some arguments about bodyboarders is they're actually more connected to the wave than a surfer. Yeah, right Because you kind of like you've got more body surface area connected to the source.

Speaker 3: 56:56

It's definitely with bodyboarding. You need good waves. You can't go like I've banned myself from going out joneses on a bodyboard because I just get frustrated Too fat. Well you just don't get the same ramps and stuff right. So you know whereas surfing you can you just multiple boards.

Speaker 1: 57:10

You can, you can, you can. Go on a long point, or you can.

Speaker 3: 57:12

You know what I mean. You can fuck around with so many different things and I'm kind of jealous of that, but at the same time it's like you're in the water. You're having fun, that's it.

Speaker 2: 57:20

You grew up here and now, like you know, you've started a family in the same area. You know, I know for me, I didn't really appreciate the area I grew up in until I'd left and gone away. I went, holy shit.

Speaker 3: 57:32

I grew up in such an amazing place.

Speaker 2: 57:35

You were the same.

Speaker 3: 57:36

So I lived in Sydney for a couple of years. I moved up there, oh, just for traineeship, but it was just to skate, skate and to go up there. I was never going to go pro, but I just wanted to experience it, you know, yeah. And then moved home. I was just like how beautiful is the escarpment? Because you've been here the whole time.

Speaker 2: 57:56

Dude, I cried driving over the escarpment today.

Speaker 3: 57:58

Yeah, yeah, it's something, man, and it gets me so much, and especially doing conservation work and working in the bush like it. Yeah, we are so fortunate where we live and I definitely take it for granted every day.

Speaker 2: 58:12

Yeah, and it's always when you live here, it's always in your peripherals. Yeah, and you don't realize until it's gone and you don't realize how much you use it as a center point for directions.

Speaker 3: 58:23

Yeah, yeah, and like when the escarparpment or something, I was like, okay, where's your escarpment, but also like it taps into something in my soul.

Speaker 2: 58:31

It's like. It's just like the symbol of home.

Speaker 3: 58:43

Well, it's also one thing that I remember living in the city is you can't see the horizon. You go a whole day without seeing the horizon. So I was living in Ultima, I was lying right in the concrete jungle and it was epic as a skateboarder Just step out of your board and skate in any direction. You know, but yeah, just that being confined, the confinement got to me, whereas you know I love the space and you know I'll go up to Sydney and I really enjoy it. I'll go up to Wollongong and I really enjoy it, but I couldn't live there. Even here, the older I get, the more I'm like stick around. I think I used to go to music festivals. Now.

Speaker 3: 59:18

I go to one gig and I'm like God fuck, get me out of here.

Speaker 2: 59:20

You know, australia's the least densely populated place on earth.

Speaker 3: 59:24

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 59:29

And we also have the least number of livable houses. Yeah right and we have the most room to build more houses, but we have the least amount of houses with the highest property prices in the world.

Speaker 3: 59:41

Yeah, right, yeah, I couldn't believe that We've overtaken Japan.

Speaker 2: 59:45

Tokyo, for example, was the most expensive city and now Sydney is apparently by 80 times Jesus Christ. So I watched this thing where they do a comparison back in the 70s. Let's say the average income per annum was $18,000. The average house price was four times more than the average yearly income. Right, yeah, okay, so that means like an average house price back in the 70s was like maybe 80, 100 grand.

Speaker 3: 1:00:16

Oh, okay, got it.

Speaker 2: 1:00:17

Yeah, but now that gap, what do you think it is? Oh, it is, it's 80 times, 80 times. So the amount of the year like it's an 80-year difference in the median house price compared to the median annual salary at Sydney. That's insane. Yeah. So I've been going through a real trip with it. At the moment I feel like, without sounding pessimistic, I'm just at a bit of a loss with the direction of our country.

Speaker 3: 1:00:52

Yeah, yeah, I can't, and you can get stuck in your bubbles as well. So obviously, from what I'm interested in, I see a lot of positive ways that we can get out of this. You know, I mean that we can resolve these issues. But because I'm a socialist, I kind of see that kind of stuff and you think, oh, this is what we'll do. But then you'll go get your groceries in Shell Cove at like 9 o'clock or 11 o'clock on a Friday and you're like, oh yeah, no, we're never going to change. Nine o'clock on a 11 o'clock on a Friday, you're like, oh yeah, no, we're never going to change. There's no way that the status quo is going to take on these concepts that are. They're not that radical. But the people that are in power and in control are never going to allow that change. They're never going to let go of that grip and they're going to use every means of fear and intimidation to make sure that the populace doesn't see the logical way to go.

Speaker 3: 1:01:48

I hope I'm wrong and I do try to stay positive. But you know, through you know just smarter tax laws we can make so much difference and I guess we saw with the stage three tax cuts that they, you know the right wing really tried to throw the fear around. But, you know, even people who are reading the Daily Telegraph could see like, hang on, this is good for me. Why is this bad? You know, like they, you know. So I kind of think that maybe, and a lot of the time, those, the people who scream the loudest, they're not that, they're actually the minority. They say they're the silent majorityest, they're actually the minority. They say they're the silent majority, but they're actually the vocal minority, right, I think a lot of the time. Again, I guess maybe I'm a bit. I'm usually real pessimistic, but maybe I'm getting more positive.

Speaker 2: 1:02:39

Well, that's good that you're getting more positive. Good for you, I've gone the opposite.

Speaker 3: 1:02:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:44

It's good to get more positive Good for you. I've gone the opposite. I've gone the opposite with yeah, I guess yeah politics and also culture, like society, culture.

Speaker 3: 1:02:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:56

Yeah, I'm really confused as to the complacency of many people in our society, because I feel like change comes from the people.

Speaker 2: 1:03:07

And if you look at the history of time, any real change that's ever been achieved is the coming together of people, but I just see more division than I've ever seen. And then I see problems growing, like you know, just an unlivable standard of living at the moment financially, from a lot of people. Yeah, like substance abuse and mental health on the rise. So it's really and I've always been a very positive person about it, but I feel like I have become more pessimistic. I don't want to, though.

Speaker 3: 1:03:43

No, well, I think, environmentally I'm pretty pessimistic pretty or realistic, I would say because so much damage has been done and to turn it around needs major, major work and we're just, we're not going to see it. You know, you see little things like I think people want to. I saw the other day the Nirvana solution. They're looking for the Nirvana solution and that is the solution has to be perfect. You're never going to get a perfect solution. So you know, the wind farms off the coast. A lot of people are against it, but I think there's a lot of misinformation. But also, it's like you know, we've got to do something. And if you think they're damaging to the environment, go and look at a coal mine. It's a lot worse.

Speaker 2: 1:04:32

Can you share with everyone what you do for your day job? Just to remind everyone.

Speaker 3: 1:04:36

So I work for National Parks. I'm a field officer. I've been there for almost six years, so field officers are on the ground. We're not rangers. Rangers are a lot more like project officers, but deal with law enforcement and permits and stuff like that. I'm just on the ground every day.

Speaker 3: 1:04:54

I love it. Before that I did 16 years of bush regen and revegetation projects, conservation and management. It doesn't pay well but fills your soul, breaks your back. But yes, in the bush every day, with dirt up under your fingernails and you're in the scrub. You know you're not national parks. A lot of time you're walking, you're working on a track or on a fire trail. You're rarely down actually in the scrub unless you're actually firefighting or hrs and stuff like that. Um, but bush region, you're in it all day, so you're so connected. If anybody wants to really learn about the bush, it's the best way to learn. It's very hard work and it doesn't pay well, but you'll work with some fucking amazing people, and why did you feel compelled to go that way?

Speaker 3: 1:05:41

I fell into it. To be honest, I studied nursing for a year and a half. And I dropped out because shout out to any nurses it's just emotionally draining and I just did a few practicals and realized it wasn't for me. I think I got a little bit of trauma. I still think about some of the instances.

Speaker 2: 1:06:05

So you completed a nursing degree.

Speaker 3: 1:06:06

No, no, I dropped out a year and a half.

Speaker 2: 1:06:09

So you did like practicals or residencies.

Speaker 3: 1:06:12

Yeah, you do where you're in the hospital for a week and you do them maybe twice a semester or so, or a term or a semester.

Speaker 2: 1:06:20

And even that was traumatic.

Speaker 3: 1:06:21

Yeah, I had a couple of instances where I was just like, yeah, these ain't for me, why? I, and even that was traumatic. Yeah, I had a couple of instances where I was just like, yeah, these ain't for me, why I had a lady with dementia. That was quite confronting. She thought I was her son and I was yeah, it was quite full on and I was getting in trouble for spending too long with patients. I wasn't just getting through the work, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:06:38

Do they have like time caps? Like look, you've got to spend this amount of time per patient? Like look, you've got to spend this amount of time per patient.

Speaker 3: 1:06:44

We need twice as many nurses as there are, and even with student nurses in the ward doing the medial tasks, there's still so much work to be done. So it just wasn't for me. And then it was actually my brother-in-law, my sister's wife, my sister's husband. He just saw an ad in the paper for Green Corps back in the day, sick, and I dropped out of of uni, didn't know what I was going to do and then I just went and did this.

Speaker 3: 1:07:10

I was just like oh, this is what I'm meant to be doing like this. I just love it. I got so in it and green core was meant to go for six months. I think I did it for three and a half months and I got a job in the traineeship in sydney and I moved up to sydney and just in national parks. No, no, no no, so I've only been in national parks the last five years.

Speaker 2: 1:07:24

Oh, who were you with then?

Speaker 3: 1:07:25

So I just jumped down. There's so many Bush Regen mobs. Just grassroots, yep, yeah, just real grassroots companies. So it's planting trees. It's mostly weed control. So Bush Regen, the whole emphasis of it is basically trying to get the bush to regenerate. So to do that, you're getting rid of the weeds, but you're doing it in a way that you're protecting what's already there. Okay, you're not just like spray it all, mulch and re-veg like erosion, erosion management stuff in a way, but it's more.

Speaker 3: 1:07:54

it's like like one of the great thing is like when you go through and you find weeding like hand weeding through something, and you're just like you can see all these little native coming up. Okay, there's a native weed around it weed around here, there's another native, old, weed around here. Then you come back next in a month and you can see that native's a little bit bigger, that native's a little bit bigger, it's the best hey.

Speaker 3: 1:08:12

And then you just keep working and you're working it like that. It's more like a grassroots approach. I've definitely done the massive re-veg projects as well, where you're putting in like hundreds of thousands of trees and plants. And you know, I've done, I've done all from grassroots side of things, real purist, where they hardly even use like chemicals and stuff, to bigger works where you are working on job sites like new estates and there's the offset. So it's like, okay, we're going to destroy this creek and so we're going to, as an offset, we're going to put money in to rehabilitate this other creek.

Speaker 3: 1:08:46

I don't really like offsets, but it is a way that a lot of people can be employed in that field and it does put a monetary value on nature. But yeah, I'm not a fan when you're saying with houses and building more houses, it is very difficult because you know, southeast Australia is one of the most deforested places in the world and we don't think about it. We think about Brazil or Borneo, because that's happening now, but southeast Australia was deforested in, you know, the 1800s and so the damage has been done. So what there is left, we really do need to protect it and you know Cumberland Plain and places where people want to put houses is the same places that we need to protect, so it's very difficult yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:09:35

So you think it also comes down to, like you know, the most inhabitable parts of Australia, on the outskirts on the fringes, the coastal areas, and then slightly inland from that really, and then beyond that.

Speaker 3: 1:09:48

it's kind of not as livable and I think that's because of the way we've set like, as I said, just went back to Orange. I've been going there since I was a kid and that place has grown Like that's a city now it's growing Okay. I think if you can do that sustainably and you can get people like I know a lot of government departments have moved to Orange Okay, out of the city. Like people talk about high-speed rail so that people can still work in Sydney. But we need to get away from that idea and make places like Orange, bathurst and these kind of regional cities more inhabitable. But you also do need to think about water and food and, like you know, drought hits out there.

Speaker 2: 1:10:30

Just do what California did and put a big pipeline to Canada. It's insane.

Speaker 3: 1:10:36

No, but if we build our houses more sustainably and we think about ways, other ways to capture water and energy use and everything, then we can do it that way. I got a bit sideways.

Speaker 2: 1:10:45

No, I love that you said that because, yeah, houses can be built more sustainably, like catching water. I think it is standard for a lot of houses new houses that are built that they must have a water catchment or a water tank, a rainwater tank. Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 3: 1:10:58

I think we're getting better and even like it was only a few years ago that you could still have black. Oh, actually, there's a house down the road that built with black not the road, actually that you can still build a house with a black roof. That blows me away. That aesthetics is more important than sustainability, it's just. I still don't get that, hey.

Speaker 2: 1:11:16

Or design Like houses can be designed even in a position to catch more sunlight and they can become self-heating.

Speaker 3: 1:11:29

Yeah, and even now, like they're saying there has to be enough room to be able to plant a tree in the backyard, because one tree can change. We used to have this big liquid amber in the backyard but unfortunately it had borers and it was falling. I had to get rid of it. But that tree man, you used to walk into the backyard here in summer and it would be five, five, six degrees cooler in the backyard. It was insane. So that's why I'm growing more trees to try and get that that back. But things like that, like trees and and instead of just jamming all these houses in on top of each other, yeah, actually breaking them up with green corridors and stuff like that, you would you know you're going to create you got to bring down that energy consumption.

Speaker 2: 1:12:04

Well, they say that's. What's happening in Western Sydney is the advent of what they call urban heat islands.

Speaker 3: 1:12:10

Yes.

Speaker 2: 1:12:11

Because of the lack of trees and these big shopping centres, big black car parks and they're not putting enough vegetation in them, and these big subdivisions where houses are built, big houses built right next to each other so there's no green corridors.

Speaker 3: 1:12:24

And they can't even have like decent eaves on the house, which also adds to the cooling.

Speaker 2: 1:12:29

Exactly, yeah, and so those areas are actually getting hotter because they're absorbing the heat and they're saying that the way it's going, parts of Western Sydney can become like unlivable. You know we're going to get up to 50 degree days and stuff out there.

Speaker 3: 1:12:43

That's madness, it is.

Speaker 3: 1:12:46

And unfortunately it's more affluent areas have more street trees. So if you're driving around and you see an area of lower socioeconomic, there's less street trees, there's less trees. Even in the park there's less trees. Interesting, yeah, and so that's one thing we need to really combat. Have a look. Trees, interesting, um, yeah, and so that's one thing we need to really combat is like and you like, have a look. Like next time. You like walk under a tree on a hot day, just notice how cool it is, but then walk under just a shade of, say, like a man-made structure. You don't get the same. You can feel that it's cool because the air that's in shit being insulated through all those leaves and everything it. It's such an easy solution but unfortunately Australians have, you know, trees bring bugs, or they drop branches, or the birds poo in my car or the leaves clog on my gutters.

Speaker 3: 1:13:33

Yeah, I remember my old neighbour once she was basically wanting me to pay for the plumber to clean her gutters because I had to get my gutters cleaned. I'm like wait, you don't clean your gutters, you've got to clean your gutters, you can of gutters. Because I had to get my gutters clean. Like wait, you don't clean your gutter, you gotta clean your gutters. You can't blame that on me on my tree. And then I'd sit and watch their family. Then I don't live there now. Watch their family sitting out there in summer under the shade of this tree that they're complaining about.

Speaker 2: 1:13:58

Yeah, just don't get it yeah, don't, don't get it it's funny how nature comes up with the best designs.

Speaker 3: 1:14:03

Because it's been doing it forever, right yeah?

Speaker 2: 1:14:08

Dude, I recently watched that documentary Fantastic Fungi. Have you seen it? Oh yeah. And I'd heard about mycelium networks.

Speaker 3: 1:14:16

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:14:16

But I had no idea how rad they are and how they just connect eco-environments and they communicate and it's like it's one of those things that once you learn it or you become aware of it, you see it everywhere and then you're like, oh, I'm reading a book about bugs now and I'm like, oh, this is going to flick me like that one, you know, because I do have another fungi book that I was trying to read, but it's a bit dry. I'm trying to get through it but, yeah, it just flips it hay.

Speaker 2: 1:14:46

Do you see rad fungi out in your?

Speaker 3: 1:14:49

work, oh, unbelievable. And I also work with a woman, shout out Jen Owens. She's just a massive fungi frother and she goes out and finds the ghost fungi and yeah, she's like, yeah, it's next to it, just got mad into it and she's kind of dragging me into it a bit too so interesting, and especially when working in the Highlands oh, it was. Yeah, it's insane.

Speaker 3: 1:15:13

But it is one of those things that you do start to notice more and then you do, especially with, like my work. You know, sometimes like I had to get a tree assessed because it had fungi growing on it. So it was a key to show that the inside of the tree was right. But then at the same time I was like, oh, do we have to get rid of this tree because it's hazardous to humans? But it's got all this cool fungi on it.

Speaker 2: 1:15:35

Well, yeah, I think people underestimate the intelligence of nature. Nature is sending in the troops Like okay, we need to break this tree down and the tree will decompose in that spot and it's going to other. Things are going to flourish from that.

Speaker 3: 1:15:49

Yeah, it's so fascinating.

Speaker 2: 1:15:50

It's life, and death, it's the cycle and it's like fungi is the catalyst for igniting that new cycle.

Speaker 3: 1:15:57

Yeah, and we know so little about it as well.

Speaker 2: 1:16:00

But you know a fact I love about it you know how humans breathe in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. And then plants breathe in carbon dioxide and then expel oxygen. Yeah, and that's photosynthesis, right?

Speaker 3: 1:16:13

Yeah, fungi breathes oxygen and expels carbon dioxide like humans Same as humans, Same as humans Same as animals. Trippy eh. That's crazy. Yeah, because they're not plant and they're not animal. Yeah, they're aliens. Yeah, they're their own thing.

Speaker 2: 1:16:27

And if you want to go deeper, like maybe we're talking about making contact with aliens, like maybe this is.

Speaker 3: 1:16:33

Maybe it's through fungi, fungi and dolphins, I reckon. Dolphins are a tree.

Speaker 2: 1:16:42

I was seeing a meme the other day of a dolphin at SeaWorld trying to hump this chick. I seen a meme the other day of a dolphin at seawall trying to hump this chick. Have you seen that? I don't want to see that. She was like patting it. Apparently they're mad horny, yeah, yeah. And like jumped on her as she's like trying to feed her to sardine and instead of like thrusting on her, dry humping her or wet humping her. Anyway, sorry, that was too far Wrong combo.

Speaker 2: 1:17:03

Don't mention dolphins Dol Too far Wrong combo. Don't mention dolphins. Dolphins man. Dolphins are smart Orcas.

Speaker 3: 1:17:07

Yeah, orcas are neck level.

Speaker 2: 1:17:09

The way they hunt they're so sick, it's fucking evil.

Speaker 3: 1:17:11

It's evil how they hunt, though man, and they're specialist hunters as well, so depending on where they are in the world, they hunt different things. Do they On?

Speaker 3: 1:17:20

the south coast they're whale hunters and On the south coast they're whale hunters and so many other stories of like in Eden that the Aboriginal people used to use. Sorry, is that the Yuin? No, it's not Yuin. Sorry, sorry, apologies, I don't know. But they would work with the orcas to hunt and then the whitefellas learnt off the Aboriginal people and they were doing it. So the orcas would let the whitefellas know when there was a whale and they would corral it into the bay.

Speaker 3: 1:17:48

The whitefellas would go out with a harpoon and they'd harpoon it and they'd leave it. The orcas had finished it off, because all the orcas wanted was the tongue. Orcas would eat the tongue and they'd put a buoy on the harpoon and they come out the next day and then they just go and find the whale it's next level, hey. And they come out the next day and then they just go and find the whale it's next level, hey. And they've been doing this for thousands and thousands of years. And then, unfortunately, one white fella killed an orca and then that was the end of it. The orca were too small and, I bug you, there's obviously a lot more to it and really apologies for really brushing over that story, apologies to First Nation people obviously a lot more to it and really apologies for really brushing over that story Like apologies to, um, you know, first nation people, um, but yeah, there's way, there's heaps in there it's awesome to go and listen to.

Speaker 2: 1:18:32

Oh, dude it's so interesting. Yeah, yeah man, you've been watching much skating lately online, oh man, I always do have you seen some of the latest clips that are coming out.

Speaker 3: 1:18:44

Yeah, yeah. So the last one that got me really fired up are Dakota's America part. I'm a big America fan and Dakota is so sick, but the GX1000 one in Basque Country, spain, oh yeah, those guys are the best. So I went over to someone from outside of the state. They talk about Street League and I say, oh, I don't watch the comps. They're like really, I'm like, man, go watch GX1000. Go watch any of those clips. And for me that's skateboarding, that's just like a next level.

Speaker 2: 1:19:15

That's raw man. So nice you know what I watched recently, like epically laded Patrick O'Dell, literally one of my favorite skateboarding journalists. And the style of those epically ladies, the format, everything. I just love everything about him.

Speaker 3: 1:19:29

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:19:29

I watched another one. But he's, you know, they stopped for a while and he started redoing some. But he did one on Stefan Janoski. Yes, Did you watch that yeah? Yeah, yeah, and like I've always loved watching Stefan skating Like he's an amazing skater yeah, stefan's skating Like he's an amazing skater, yeah, but I didn't really Know the back story Of his shoe.

Speaker 3: 1:19:47

Yeah, that was insane, and again.

Speaker 2: 1:19:49

It really ties in To what you were saying earlier. Yeah, like I mean yeah 100%. Do you mind if I recap it. Yeah Well, like Nike, were like we're going to give you a shoe, and he's like I knew exactly what I want you know, and and he's like I knew exactly what I want you know, and they're just like. And then he sort of came at a head with them, like in the design process.

Speaker 1: 1:20:09

Did you know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he's just like no, no, this is what I want.

Speaker 2: 1:20:11

And then, like all the other dudes are on Nike, like, dude, don't be too difficult, you don't?

Speaker 3: 1:20:15

want to lose Nike, it's like.

Speaker 2: 1:20:19

no, it's what I fucking want he P-Rod and those guys like dude, don't fuck with them. You're going to lose your contract. They're not going to re-sign you stuff like that. He's like nah, I want it, and what? Do you know that?

Speaker 1: 1:20:34

shoe was so popular that their big factory in China has like a Jordan wing and a Janoski wing.

Speaker 3: 1:20:37

Yeah, possibly one of the most sold shoes, not just in skateboarding. But again, this is what happens when you stay true 100% yeah yeah, he knew exactly what he wanted and he was going to make it regardless.

Speaker 1: 1:20:56

And I love the fact that he only wears his shoe, because it's like that's what he wants to skate in.

Speaker 2: 1:20:59

That makes sense, right Board feel. He wanted that toe. Nice and thin.

Speaker 3: 1:21:03

He even got married to them.

Speaker 2: 1:21:04

Oh yeah, didn't. Yeah, like now he's just leading the biggest rockstar lifestyle like you'll never have to work again no, it is insane.

Speaker 3: 1:21:11

It is insane, yeah, no, and that's it like. If you stay true and there's so many like. Once I kind of got onto that idea of like. It was like a brain switch, like I was going through kind of dark time there during the pandemic and lockdown and everything, and once I realized that it was just like. And then you start seeing all these other people that the same thing. They're just like like the best albums, the best musicians that you love, they could not give a shit about the audience. They're making that for them.

Speaker 3: 1:21:40

And I was listening, just watching an interview with idols one of my favorite bands and then new album. They're like yeah, to be honest, we didn't make for the crew. We made this is we make music for us. Like, if the crowd love it, that's a bonus. Right then, and that's what it should be. At the end of the day, anything you make, put 100% of yourself into it. Um, yeah, and I do feel sorry for or not sorry, but I hope that other artists will get that enlightenment. You know, and I see friends and staff and you can see them just promoting their brand, as they say. You know, it's like just don't worry about it. Just love the feeling of the bristles or the can in your hand, like that's what it should be about. Is that what?

Speaker 2: 1:22:21

Rick Rubin was saying in his book.

Speaker 3: 1:22:23

Yeah, pretty much Like it's an epic book, like I'll read it. It's like almost like it's a religious text. You know, like I bought it for my mom and I said to her like you don't sit down and just read it cover to cover, you read like a chapter or two and then you just ponder on that for a couple of days and then read it and even the other day I was getting a little bit stuck and you just flick it to a page and just see what comes up. You know there is a lot of stuff about. You know, like the universe provides and you've got to look for source and I get that I'm still not 100% on the whole like listen to the universe and like everything happens for a reason.

Speaker 3: 1:23:01

I think that's a little bit of a like privileged white person way to look at things. You know, like everything happens for a reason. I don't, I think that's a little bit of a like privileged white person way to look at things. You know, like that kid in Gaza. You know what's the purpose of that happening to him. You know or to them.

Speaker 3: 1:23:14

But it is true, like if you open your mind and you know you're pondering on, you're stuck on an idea, you're stuck on something. Just let it come to you, don't force it, and take the time and look around you and you know, observe nature, observe the world around you. That's why I love driving in a car through country roads. Man, I get so much stimulus. Man Like it just.

Speaker 2: 1:23:35

But some would say that's a spiritual practice in itself.

Speaker 3: 1:23:37

A hundred percent, yeah, would you describe yourself as a spiritual person. Not in the traditional sense.

Speaker 2: 1:23:43

100 yeah, okay, well, okay. What about describe it in the non-traditional sense?

Speaker 3: 1:23:47

so more in an environmental sense, in that like, okay, so go on, mystics, even if it's like a crap, surf, I get to paddle the river. I paddle the river, that I paddle the river and like, even if it's crap, because I can't see it from my end, I can't check it. I can kind of check it, but I don't bother, I just paddle the river and see what I get, and that's what I'd say excitement, right. But that river for me is like a sacred, or I shouldn't say sacred. It's a special place for me because it's a sacred place for the Darugul people. But it's a special place for me and it's that I get. It fills my cup, it gets me. You know, it really is. It's spiritual, right, I get that in nature 100%.

Speaker 3: 1:24:30

And art is almost like praying. You know it's your meditation. I suck at meditation, I want to get better at it, but I can get lost in a painting. And then you're painting and you look down and you're like, oh, jesus Christ, I've got to go pick up the kids. You just get lost. I guess. If that answers it, I don't know For me that's my kind of spirituality through art, is that, it's my expression and I feel like I have to do it. Yeah, like I was saying to you before, sometimes I wish I could just be like normal and not have to have this burning desire to have to paint. But the older I get, the more I'm like. No, I'm so blessed that I am comfortable to do this.

Speaker 2: 1:25:11

So where do you find guidance in life when a difficult decision comes up?

Speaker 3: 1:25:16

well, it depends on what it is. So my wife and I talk a lot and so I'm very happy and I'm very fortunate there, um, and also she's a lot and so I'm very happy and I'm very fortunate there, and also she's a counsellor and works in mental health. So I always think that I'm like a she should just put me in her resume and like look what I did with this guy, like how much can I do? You know she does work in drug and alcohol.

Speaker 2: 1:25:38

What do you mean like when she first met me, when she first?

Speaker 3: 1:25:44

met me. I was, yeah, I was a very heavy, I was an alcoholic and a heavy pot smoker and probably just stopped using party drugs, but, yeah, like, basically an addict. And now, like you know, she's been sober for a year and I'm going.

Speaker 2: 1:26:03

This is a new thing. I noticed you.

Speaker 3: 1:26:04

Yeah, I've been three months, but last year I went from drinking a case a week plus to six drinks a week. That's what I did all last year and then now trying to. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:26:19

So was there something that prompted it? Were you feeling crap physically?

Speaker 3: 1:26:22

Yeah, I'm always feeling crap and also like dealing with mental health and everything. Can you know, you think, oh, I'll go have a drink, feel better, like, yeah, you do, but the next day you know it's just a cycle, right, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, fortunate, it's just about feeling better. I just want I just like feeling good, I like feeling fresh and you know, as I said, I got back issues and everything, so I can I find I'm not drinking, I don't get the aches and everything as much. I feel like I'm actually getting the benefits from my workout and from looking after myself and everything and, as well as eating good and trying not to eat as much meat, trying not to cut out all the crap.

Speaker 3: 1:27:00

I had a terrible, terrible diet when I was a young guy. Okay, yeah, really cutting out sugar and you know just shit, it's not that hard, like just good food. But I'm also fortunate that I can afford good food. Right, I can go and buy, I can go to source and go and buy granola and fresh fruit and stuff, and that's what's really unfortunate is that it is it's not a choice. Some people don't have a choice. Yeah, they have to eat crap because that's all they can afford. So it's a privilege and I.

Speaker 2: 1:27:30

You feel like you were neglecting that privilege.

Speaker 3: 1:27:32

Yeah, yeah, true, yeah, 100% Eating shapes and drinking dares every day.

Speaker 2: 1:27:39

I love shapes pizza shapes. But again, it's moderation 100%. It's funny how, like your version of what's bad changes, the healthier you get you know when I, when I first stopped drinking, like 11 years ago, it was, you know, bad diet meant maccas and kfc, you know. And then, as I got healthier like if I was having a bad diet week it was me I meant I had a had a wood-fired pizza on saturday night, you know, yeah, yeah, like that was bad, or I did need a packet of shapes, but it wasn't as bad and it's like I think you notice it more though you become you actually, I think you become more sensitive yeah, yeah, I can't eat.

Speaker 3: 1:28:16

I can't really eat like at work. We'll have like a, a barbecue lunch and I'll have three sausages and be like.

Speaker 2: 1:28:22

I feel like absolute shit yeah, because you've had a taste of what it feels like to feel really good, and I think most people become so accustomed to feeling like shit and that's their new normal. A hundred percent. Like this is just how I feel all the time, so that's normal. And then they don't realize that you potentially can feel so good yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:28:39

And it also takes time. I remember when I quit pot. It was the hardest thing. It took me so many times to do it and it took a year before I felt the benefits. There you go it took a year to get it out of my system.

Speaker 2: 1:28:52

Interesting.

Speaker 3: 1:28:54

And that's why people quit for like a month or two and they get back on it. It's like you know you still, you haven't, it's still in your system Like it takes so long.

Speaker 2: 1:29:01

What were you noticing in that year then? Like still lethargic at times.

Speaker 3: 1:29:05

Yeah, yeah, still not Like obviously started feeling better sleep and better stuff like that. But it wasn't until a year later that, I think, mentally, I really started clicking Gotcha, yeah, and always told myself I needed pot and I needed alcohol to get ideas, man, to be creative. Right, I'm an artist. Yeah, it's that bullshit lie that artists are better when they're suffering, and that's fucking bullshit. You're better when you're feeling. Amazing. I can't believe you said that.

Speaker 3: 1:29:35

Yeah, yeah, and the idea is, my art has gotten so much better since I stopped smoking. Weed Dude, like it, just like phenomenally better.

Speaker 2: 1:29:44

There you go, because you've, like, it's an energy expenditure, you know? Like, did you know that when you're actively using your brain, that in a day, if you're like having to concentrate a lot, that your brain will actually use 20% of all of your energy stores in your body? That's how much energy it needs. So, like there's a tank full of energy, right, that one organ is the one that is going to absorb a majority share, more than your muscles, because, like, it needs to pull all the energy out of your body to to function.

Speaker 3: 1:30:15

That's the fuel that's why you sleep so good if you've read before you went to bed or like drawn or done yeah, it's just like putting your brain on the treadmill for half an hour.

Speaker 2: 1:30:24

Yeah yeah, yeah so, and that's why like the more the more energy source you have. Like you're actually going to be able to think better. And sid, my friend was saying it the other day on the phone like he's never been a gym guy, but he started going to the gym lifting weights, doing some stuff for his knees and, what do you know? He feels like he's producing the best art he's ever produced and he's actually getting more work than he's ever got. Yeah. And because, unlike you, that's his only source of revenue.

Speaker 3: 1:30:50

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:30:51

So it's very important.

Speaker 3: 1:30:52

But I remember one of the inspirations for me to really get on top of it and it took a while is a friend that I mentioned before, luke Wynn. He had a year off our column and within that year what he got done is insane. Like I was seeing it as a friend, and he works in graphic design. He now works for Dickies, but in that year he got work with Mambo and then he went on and worked for Billabong and I just attribute it all to that year, that one year Like he may not, but I definitely, and you think it set off the rest of his career. I reckon 100% Wow. And you think it set off the rest of his career. I reckon 100% Wow. And it's always been ingrained in me and that always pushed me to be better, to be better, to be better. But we're talking like 10 years ago. It took me a while, dude, I'm the same. He's like a veteran now in his field.

Speaker 2: 1:31:38

I have to learn the hard way over and over. Yeah, yeah, like, it's Like it's not easy.

Speaker 3: 1:31:41

What have you?

Speaker 2: 1:31:42

noticed then, in regards to your mental health, then, since you stopped drinking?

Speaker 3: 1:31:46

To be honest, this year has been pretty stressful at work. I've had to step up and, yeah, there's been a lot of other things going on and I keep thinking, god, I'm glad I'm not drinking, because I would be, I know, in myself I would be so much more irritable and, you know, grumpy than I am now. I'm not saying I'm fucking amazing and I'm whistling off to work every morning. I still enjoy going to work, but it's, yeah, it has been tough, but I reckon I would be a lot worse off.

Speaker 2: 1:32:23

Okay, you didn't feel like it's not like it's an escape, because I mean it's a good escape when you're stressed oh, so you don't so now you don't. I'm gonna ask you this now you don't have that little afternoon escape, stressful day a couple of beers yeah to let the pressure off yeah, you didn't?

Speaker 3: 1:32:42

you don't feel like you're craving that I am, um, but I just put it into other things, like I'll. I've never been a tea guy, but I'll make just. You got a lemon myrtle tree that grows out the front. I can grab some leaves off that, crush it up and make a tea and it's just. I've found, like I was saying to you before, that, as well as like the zero beers, I really enjoy them, um, and I find if when I feel like a beer, I think all right, have a zero beer and see how you feel, and afterwards I don't feel like it anymore, like, and I remember that with like cigarette, quitting cigarettes, um, it's like a 10 minute thing. Wait that 10 minutes and see if you still want a cigarette a lot of times you don't it's.

Speaker 3: 1:33:23

It's just, the cravings are only a short amount of time and you've just got to kind of not wear them but do something else.

Speaker 3: 1:33:29

that's positive. But the thing that I found for me with drinking was that if I had a couple of beers, I was less motivated to come out and paint or to draw. Sure, on a Sunday, arvo, it was nice to be out in the studio and crack a beer while I'm painting, paint away and have a couple of beers while you're painting. It was enjoyable and everything. But you come home from work, you have a beer or whatever, and then it's like, oh, I'm going to be fucked, whereas now it's like, no, that's the motivation not to drink. It's like, yeah, but I'm going to be pumped to paint later. Just ride it, yeah, but yeah, like, yeah, like I've. I think I've done most things going to a pub and not drank, which is kind of hard. But but then at the same time it's like you just think about how good I'm going to feel at 2 am in the morning when I don't wake up with the aches and then it becomes your new normal, like, uh, I really struggled with that.

Speaker 2: 1:34:19

I think the first year I didn't drink, all my friends were getting married. I had to go to like six weddings. Yeah, yeah, I haven't done that yet, and I found that the hardest, because it's free alcohol and you're usually with close friends and they've only known you as someone you drink with.

Speaker 3: 1:34:32

Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:34:33

Yeah, and I think it was a baptism by fire, because once you do get through that, everyone just goes. Oh, they just accept it.

Speaker 3: 1:34:49

Your real friends will accept it and it's just not a thing, and they don't ask you another thing I've noticed in social situations is once everyone's had one beer, they forget you're not drinking anyway, and they just like don't talk about it. Yeah right, that's interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:34:54

Yeah, but one more point I want to add to you. I don't want to talk too much myself, but um, I learned that every seven, like your body's constantly regenerating cells did you know that, like creating new cells in the body to heal itself and regenerate.

Speaker 3: 1:35:07

Okay.

Speaker 2: 1:35:08

So yeah, like you've got cells, they die, they serve their purpose. They die, your body creates more cells and it's a seven-year process. After seven years, like, every single cell in your body is being completely regenerated, so why don't? You give it seven years without a drop of alcohol in your body, Like you were saying. Oh, it took about a whole year for the pot. Yeah, yeah, yeah For me I really do believe it was like seven years until I just felt like the alcohol was completely gone.

Speaker 3: 1:35:35

Far out yeah. I believe that Well, I'd be over seven years with pot. Yeah. Oh no, I wouldn't. I mean.

Speaker 2: 1:35:43

I've got different. I don't smoke weed, but I've got different philosophies on it these days, man.

Speaker 3: 1:35:47

Yeah, I think it's like everything if it's in moderation, like I had. What was it? Had that tincture, tincture, tincture, where it's just like it's a different way to get the THC out and it was just a couple of drops in a in a, in a Like a vaporizer?

Speaker 3: 1:36:06

No, no, no Because it was actually like drops. I put in a you know, I put in a non-alcoholic beer and and had that, and it was just it was different to smoking it. It was completely different. It was like it was. It was more along that like, oh, this is what it's meant to be. This is what it's meant to be. You know what I mean. Like I'm not against it. I like the Greco thing. Like I don't want to preach to anyone, but I remember Jim Greco said if it worked for me I'd still be doing it. So, like you know, dustin Dolan probably works for him.

Speaker 2: 1:36:34

Good on you, you know, maybe not, so I don't want to preach, but yeah, pot just didn't work for me, whereas I know people In what way, when you were stoned.

Speaker 3: 1:36:45

If I had it in the house. I had to smoke it.

Speaker 2: 1:36:47

And then, what was your behaviour?

Speaker 3: 1:36:48

I could leave beers in the. You know what I mean. I could have beer in the fridge and not drink it, but if there was pot in the house, I had to smoke it and and then I was just. I was a grumpy person because I was always fucking stoned. Not when I was stoned, but the rest of the fucking time yeah, oh, because you couldn't wait to get stoned again. Yeah, because you're just numbing.

Speaker 3: 1:37:07

You're just constantly fucking numbing and you're pushing those emotions away and I fully believe that I didn't kind of grow emotionally because I was just fucking numbing it for like decades.

Speaker 2: 1:37:23

Do you know? That's a known thing with addicts. Yeah, they say that an addict stops growing emotionally after their first drink or drug. So, yeah, so then it's like, if you've been drinking since you were 12, right, you've got the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old. Yeah, wow, that's like this.

Speaker 3: 1:37:44

I've heard it said before. Whether how true it or not it is, you've got the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old.

Speaker 2: 1:37:47

Yeah, wow, that's like this, I've heard it said before, whether how true or not it is, but I don't know Because. For me personally again, when I stopped drinking it was like physically I felt good, but actually my mental health got worse for a period. Because all of a sudden I was like having to just deal with shit and couldn't numb out on anything couldn't escape.

Speaker 1: 1:38:05

I was like having to just deal with shit and couldn't numb out on anything, couldn't escape.

Speaker 2: 1:38:07

I was like, oh no, I've actually got to take responsibility. I've got to feel my emotions now, because if I felt angry, upset, resentful, sad drink, oh okay. I feel okay, now I'm numb, now. But now, all of a sudden, it's like, oh fuck, I've got to deal with this.

Speaker 3: 1:38:24

I've got to deal with this. I've got to sit with this now. I can't just run off and hide.

Speaker 2: 1:38:27

And it's a skill, like sitting with it's a skill. Yeah, okay, yeah yeah true, it gets developed and refined and then you become a master.

Speaker 3: 1:38:34

That makes so much sense though. Yeah, Because my wife has said I'm more patient with the girls when I'm not drinking.

Speaker 2: 1:38:40

More present.

Speaker 3: 1:38:40

Yeah, yeah, but I still feel like Elka's three almost turning four. She's going through the phases where it's hard, it's hard, so I don't know. I'm like, really, am I? It doesn't feel that way. I broke a chair the other day. That's okay, though.

Speaker 2: 1:39:09

Do you go into guilt after that?

Speaker 3: 1:39:10

Of course you do. Yeah, Like. It's just that I struggle with like containing that kind of emotional release and getting better at it.

Speaker 2: 1:39:17

But yeah, yeah 100%. I think the shame and the guilt is more destructive than the actual act.

Speaker 3: 1:39:24

Oh yeah, I sit with a lot of shame yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:39:27

And it's not. I never stole from anybody, I never hurt anyone physically or anything like that, but it's just that wasted time and just so much, just awkward shit. And you always focus on the shit, right, Like I remember a mate like sitting with him. I remember we went to that gig and we were like holy shit, I completely forgot about him. I remember we went to that gig and we were like holy shit, I completely forgot about that. I'd blocked out this really good memory of something because all I carry is the negative things that happen and I do have to stop myself sometimes and go hang on. No, You've got a lot of good out of that too.

Speaker 2: 1:40:01

Are you good at owning your behavior when you do something negative? I think I am. I hope I am. You'll own it and say sorry, yeah, out of that too. Are you good at owning?

Speaker 3: 1:40:04

your behavior when you do something negative.

Speaker 2: 1:40:05

I think I am I hope I am you'll own it and say sorry.

Speaker 3: 1:40:08

Yeah, I'll apologize, and yeah, maybe a little bit too much sometimes like but yeah, no, 100, like I try to.

Speaker 3: 1:40:17

I try to. I'll say to that, but so you can do, yeah, but yeah, on that, like emotional growing is something I have to deal with at work is I just don't have the confidence in myself. In what way I just start to say, oh, I can't. You know, I recently went for a job within parks, another job, and I was going to leave the area. Basically, if I took this job and then I had like my supervisor saying, like how valuable work is and I'm going to come like no, I didn't know that. He's like, yeah, man, like you're the easiest person to deal with. I'm like really I thought I was just like a whinge and like a complainer. He's like no man, like oh, wow, okay, thanks man.

Speaker 2: 1:40:54

Really, do you think you've got a negative perspective of yourself?

Speaker 3: 1:41:05

I just don't think I've kind of grown that emotional growth. It's growing the confidence. You know, like I don't over compensate with confidence, like a lot of men do, um, you know I don't feel the need to to purchase things and to, you know, over compensate, um, but yeah, I just don't have confidence in myself in those terms, right, which is just so weird, whereas I can, if you give me a wall, I'll go and climb up a sizzle, lift and paint that wall and not be nervous. I'll sleep fine the night before. Wow, yeah. But then if I've got to go and it used to be really bad, like if I had to go and talk to other tradies on the side of the foreman, or if I had to go and, like when I first started working at parks, you got to go and talk to people about, like, having dogs in the park or camping where they're not supposed to, like I just have conversations with them. I'm not out to be a cop, but those situations, oh, I get so freaking anxious, like so insane.

Speaker 2: 1:41:51

Like you, don't like confrontation.

Speaker 3: 1:41:53

Yeah, maybe, or just like don't want to feel inferior or feel like like even now I have to tell myself like if I take the car to the mechanic, you know if they're a little bit like off themselves, like fuck this man. Okay, you know more about me than cars Fuck off. But it's all in my head. This guy's not doing that, I'm just building it up in my head to be bigger than what it is.

Speaker 2: 1:42:16

I'm getting over it now.

Speaker 3: 1:42:17

I'm getting used to it.

Speaker 2: 1:42:19

So you're accepting that sometimes, that your feelings aren't facts?

Speaker 3: 1:42:22

Yeah, yeah, it's that thing right. It's the thing of knowing that the thought you're having isn't right. That's what intelligence is. You know what I mean? It's like being sexist or racist or homophobic or whatever. It's like everybody has those thoughts to a degree. It's just the intelligence to go, no, that's not right, flip that over. And the more you do that, then you just subconsciously do it right, whereas if you think, oh, those people are bad, they're ruining our society, and you just keep, and then you only look for people who say things like that, then that becomes your intelligence, which is really fucking low. Yes, you know, but if you're smart enough to go, no, no, that's not right in your own head, head, flip it over, and then you do that constantly then you you kind of break down that intolerance.

Speaker 2: 1:43:10

Yeah, that's a good point. I once heard that empathy is one of the highest form of intelligence.

Speaker 3: 1:43:16

Yes, was that? Is that what you're trying? Is that what you're getting? Yeah, I think so. I think, oh, I said something like that the other day.

Speaker 2: 1:43:21

Yeah, like any anyone who has the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes.

Speaker 3: 1:43:27

Yes, yeah, like that's, that's like this next level higher order, because our, because it overrides the, the primal fight or flight instinct 100, yeah we've got that tribal kind of shit in this it's overriding yeah, that is us versus them. Yeah, but it's. Yeah, you can override it through intelligence.

Speaker 2: 1:43:47

It's a survival mechanism, like I'm either going to run away from this person or I'm going to fight them, because they're only addressing the symptoms or what's on the outside of their actions or behavior.

Speaker 3: 1:43:59

Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:44:01

So it's like they're intelligent enough to look past the perceived attack or fear. Yeah. I don't know.

Speaker 3: 1:44:09

Yeah, no, I've heard that a couple of times recently. Yeah. Yeah, it's always funny how that. You know what I'm saying. I don't like that kind of the universe provides, but it fucking kind of does sometimes.

Speaker 2: 1:44:18

But what's the universe, though I?

Speaker 3: 1:44:20

don't know. Well, just like something will come up, you start maybe it's just that you notice it more and you're like oh, I just noticed that the other day. Fuck, that's weird, what a weird coincidence. Like, apparently there are no coincidences, but I don't know.

Speaker 3: 1:44:35

I'm very skeptical on that, but it does seem to happen like that sometimes, that the answer you're looking for will kind of keep popping up. Do you think it's a sign you're on the right path? Maybe, or maybe it's just that you're open to it. If you weren't open to it, that answer was there all along, but you just I don't fucking know, I'm getting philosophical now.

Speaker 2: 1:44:53

I love it the thing is like yeah, like straight away, like I get overwhelmed with it too, and then I do exactly what you just did and went. Oh, I don't know what I'm talking about yeah, true, true, you, true. You know what? No one does. Yeah, I feel like you've acknowledged that you're connected to nature. You're part of nature.

Speaker 3: 1:45:09

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:45:10

But I want to ask you like, because you're in a natural environment constantly.

Speaker 3: 1:45:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:45:15

Do you ever ask yourself like how did this come about?

Speaker 3: 1:45:18

How did the world come about? How?

Speaker 2: 1:45:20

did nature come about? How did these intelligent life forms of fungi, plants, fauna, fauna, flora? Do you ever you don't have moments where you're like did something create this, or do you believe it was evolved?

Speaker 3: 1:45:34

I do understand evolution, like and I guess, working in nature. You see that and you, yeah, you read about it, you learn about, you learn about. But I do definitely have that thing like okay, like I can see how that evolved from that. But it's a big fucking jump from a bonobo to a human being you know what I mean or like a chimpanzee or bonobo, like that jump, that's a big fucking jump. But also, working in nature, you just see some fucking just insane things that are just unexplainable. But it's been here for billions and billions of years. It's such a big process. I don't believe that it's there's some greater being like or something else. But if you do, that's cool on you, but for me, I just yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:46:20

You just think it's been a process of To be honest.

Speaker 3: 1:46:22

what I think more about is how the fuck are we like how much humanity has changed in such a short amount of time? In that evolutionary like? If I'm stressed and having a bad day, I can go out and weed in the yard and I feel better in a bit right Like if I weed for 15, 20 minutes. I'll feel better because, evolutionarily, that's what we've been doing for hundreds of thousands of years, millions of years. The way we're living right now is just so unnatural. That's what I think about every day, thank you. When I'm at work, I just think this is like no wonder we are struggling so much emotionally and everything. Because another great book to read is that Tribe by Sebastian Junger. Okay, and that breaking down of like the way we live is so destructive. You know like, for one point from that book is like you know, the high school shooters and the mass shooters usually come from affluent suburbs where people don't talk to their neighbours. They don't come from the poorer communities where everybody knows their neighbour and there's actually community.

Speaker 3: 1:47:32

Yeah, they're breaking down a tribe. They're breaking down a community. We're so isolated and you know, I think about that more than the bigger picture stuff. I think about that too I try to get that, or just subconsciously. I think that's what's coming into the work.

Speaker 2: 1:47:50

I think a lot yeah, and I think about the same thing, except from a slightly different perspective because I'm a high school teacher. I have a lot of moments of like I'm spending more time with other people's children than they are, and then someone else is looking after my children effectively and raising someone else oh wow.

Speaker 2: 1:48:04

If someone else is looking after my children effectively and raising my children, yeah, wow. Or if they're in day childcare, I'm paying someone to look after my kids. That whole model doesn't make sense. Why aren't we? We should be with our kids every day. We should be the one teaching our kids and raising our kids.

Speaker 3: 1:48:21

And only a few generations ago, your kid was with you all day in the field or foraging. You know that's what we're meant to be doing, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:48:30

Yeah, and I think that's the core of the disconnect 100%, that's yeah. And that's where I think the structures are all wrong and the yeah like this, yeah that's.

Speaker 3: 1:48:40

I forgot what I was going to say it's like what we value as a society is.

Speaker 2: 1:48:44

The structure's all wrong man yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:48:46

Like I know of people that you know they're quite well off and they have a job that is very well respected, but they have another person who basically raises their kids. They call her mum and then they hardly ever see their kids because in our society the job that they do is considered more important than being a parent.

Speaker 2: 1:49:07

And that's exactly what the structure is.

Speaker 3: 1:49:08

I just trip on it so hard Okay.

Speaker 2: 1:49:10

Why? Why are people doing that?

Speaker 3: 1:49:13

Because I think it's just the capitalist society that we value. We value like money and status over, like to quote Charlie Tuner right the most that you can spend on any yeah the most that you can spend on any child is time 100%. That has always resonated with me, man, like it's just, it doesn't matter you can spoil your kids, you can take one of the fanciest holidays and everything, but really they just want to get. They just want to throw mud at each other in the backyard with you.

Speaker 2: 1:49:41

You know, like, just, yeah, like how many times have you heard your kids say to you Daddy, play with me.

Speaker 3: 1:49:46

Oh, just before. Yeah, to like three times today, all the time.

Speaker 2: 1:49:49

And you know, and it's tiring. As a parent, it's tiring. You're like, oh, okay. And doing something you don't really feel like doing. Yeah. You know, but we've almost been conditioned Like anything. The more you do play with your kids when they ask you, it gets easier and easier and easier, and the more you put the effort in.

Speaker 3: 1:50:07

I think, like I'm not the best at it but I'm working on it, but like little things, like today it was like okay, I knew I had the girls today. You freeze some. I got some of the toys and you freeze it in an ice block overnight and then they play with that and they just get some like using paintbrushes to try and like melt the ice and get the toys out of the ice.

Speaker 3: 1:50:27

So it's that little thing of like, take that little bit of effort and it makes it easier, whereas when they just dump on you, daddy, do a jigsaw puzzle, I want to play with this. It's like, oh, it's that drain right, but if you can, kind of. I also heard another one that I've been using lately is like picture yourself as an 80-year-old man. Your kids are all grown up, you've come back in time, and when your kids are like feral and they're being really testing is, you pretend that you've just come back in time and this is the only moment you get.

Speaker 3: 1:50:56

You don't get any other time, and so I've been doing that lately. My daughter's just really like let's walk away. Okay, hang on, it's good, I'm going to miss this when she's older. They don't get it back. They don't get it back, you know. And when they are having a tantrum, sometimes they want to cuddle man, or you can just distract them.

Speaker 2: 1:51:14

But I think what a lot of Australians face is such a high cost of living. They literally have to work five days a week to house their children and feed their children. And that's noble in itself, 100%, but it doesn't mean it's right.

Speaker 3: 1:51:32

No, it's not.

Speaker 2: 1:51:33

And there are work jobs that they don't really like. They'll just do because they know they're at a necessity.

Speaker 3: 1:51:40

Yeah, they have to. That's at the base level.

Speaker 3: 1:51:42

Yeah and I've got friends like. I'm pretty fortunate, especially like working in government. You do get other benefits that friends of mine don't, and you'll see their kids go into after-school care. Someone can't pick them up. There's no house to go to at 3 o'clock, of course. There's no house to go to at 3 o'clock. Most people work till 5. We're very fortunate that we have family members around who can help and it just depends on your situation, right? It's not. Yeah, it's very unfair the way the system is set up, that it isn't more flexible. Everybody came from a parent. Why isn't it?

Speaker 2: 1:52:19

You know it, just I don't know it takes a village to raise a child 100%.

Speaker 3: 1:52:24

It's not just the parent's responsibility, and that's what going on teaching before maybe think of people like oh, homework, what do I have to do? That's why we send her to school. Hang on, no, your job is to raise your child and educate your child. The teacher's helping you on that task. They're not doing it for you. Exactly, it's not a mechanic fixing your car. Yeah, they're adding elements. You build on those elements. You know, like I don't know. It is yeah, nurses and teachers, man, like the hardest job.

Speaker 2: 1:52:56

Tough gigs, man. I have people often say to me oh you teachers and all your holidays. And I'm like sure, why don't you do it? Yeah, Do it, Go, yeah. And then I hear people like when it comes to school holidays, like oh God, the kids are at home, I don't know what to do with them. It's so exhausting, Can't wait until they go back to school.

Speaker 2: 1:53:14

But one thing I want to mention. Last thing, there's this really, I guess, stupid Adam Sandler movie called Click. Oh yeah, Look, it's just a cheesy Hollywood movie, but I must admit that movie has got a pretty gnarly underlying message in relation to what you're saying oh really, I've never actually watched it. I know, because you probably go. This is just a cheesy Adam Sandler movie it sums up what you were talking about oh, really.

Speaker 2: 1:53:36

Well, it's like he has this remote control and he's busy with his family and it's become some magic remote control, and he's like I and it's become some magic remote control and he's like I just want a break from the family so he can pause his family and then do whatever he wants. Then the remote control malfunctions and started fast-forwarding him through his life. The next thing you know he's missed a year of his kid's life.

Speaker 3: 1:53:55

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:53:56

Two years and then he's an old man and the kids are all grown up and his wife left him because he just wasn't present. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he just wasn't present. Yeah, yeah, yeah, look, anna and Ike, it's pretty actually confronting, it's cheesy but got me caught me off guard.

Speaker 3: 1:54:11

Yeah, okay, something to think about. Check it out, I'll have to watch it.

Speaker 2: 1:54:14

Watch it with the missus.

Speaker 3: 1:54:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, man, Adam Sandler. Is it a serious one or is it actually trying to be a comedy?

Speaker 2: 1:54:20

I first thought Because he makes good serious movies.

Speaker 3: 1:54:22

Well, that's what I mean His comedies suck it started.

Speaker 2: 1:54:25

He's a serious one. It started off as it's got elements of humour and then it's like this is actually deadly serious.

Speaker 3: 1:54:31

Yeah, well, his last two ones are Uncut Diamonds. And then there was the other one, the basketball one, which I watched twice in a week. Is it good? Yeah, they're amazing. I've never seen them yeah he makes good, serious movies, does he? Yeah, but apart from Happy Gilmore, his comedy's all sunk, and I'll say that I don't care Like throw hate.

Speaker 2: 1:54:52

Should I watch that Uncut Diamonds one?

Speaker 3: 1:54:54

Uncut Diamonds is sick, and then I'm trying to think I'm a basketball fan. So the other one I really enjoy, Like he's a big basketball fan too, yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think he produced them as well.

Speaker 2: 1:55:05

Okay, yeah, but yeah, uncut Diamonds is really good. Right, I'll check it out for sure. Did you watch the Last Stand's talkie series, jordan? Yeah yeah, that's a few years old now. Yeah, I remember watching that during the pandemic. Actually, you said you went through a bit of a rough patch in the pandemic, like most people. What?

Speaker 3: 1:55:25

triggered that. Elka was born right. My youngest was born right at the start, so we brought her home. I was able we didn't have restrictions in the hospital brought her home and we were straight into lockdown, yeah, and so it was pretty.

Speaker 3: 1:55:41

I remember I had some depression after Emmy was born my eldest and then I think I'd say it's just that change and just everything. It's very emotional and I don't deal with that stuff real well. And then I had a couple of projects fall through but I didn't have heaps. There was definitely artists got how I didn't feel for artists and everything and musicians. Through that time.

Speaker 3: 1:56:01

I was still able to go to work every day because I was considered an essential worker, even though a lot of the time the national parks were freaking closed. But it was just tough. It was having like two kids and everything and the whole world's thrown on its head, yeah. And then, yeah, I guess I just went through an emotional time. It was depressive, but I used that to really look deep into art practice and what I was doing and what I really wanted to do and what made me happy. Yeah, so I don't see it as, I see it as a positive thing for me and I think a lot of artists did get a lot of positivity out of that time because it was that reflective thing. But man, I'm so fortunate A lot of people end up a lot worse than that, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:56:49

Oh, dude, in hindsight, like I feel like people are now just like coming to terms with what actually happened to us in that two-year period.

Speaker 3: 1:56:56

Yeah, I mean people would talk about Elka saying, oh, she was a COVID baby, but I don't think it affected her too much because she was a child, but yeah, I think my eldest. It probably affected her more. She was in kindergarten.

Speaker 2: 1:57:08

Same. My daughter was the same.

Speaker 3: 1:57:09

Yes, yes, so it would have been the same. So I think that was bigger, and then I think of like 17, 18-year-olds. It must have been just devastating.

Speaker 2: 1:57:20

Well, you know, it's a really good point that one man, because I recently had a musician on here from that hip-hop band, the Herd. Tim Levinson, the Earth Boy yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:57:30

And he's saying that the knock-on effect of COVID is really happening now with live music gigs, but he attributes it to all those teenagers that were graduating high school and then that's when they start that rite of passage of going to festivals and live music gigs they couldn't do any of do any of that and it's actually changed the culture and now there are that there's this whole generation coming through that just don't really understand going to music festivals and live gigs and they're not doing it as much no way yeah, so he's like I've never seen it like he's been in the music industry for 25 years and he's like you know, it's crazy and he has that label.

Speaker 2: 1:58:07

He's the main director of Elephant. Tracks and they sign all these other Australian artists like Hermitude and Horror Show, and he's just like we're just not getting the numbers. You know, and it's like he thinks it's because of the culture got changed by COVID.

Speaker 3: 1:58:24

Yeah, Interesting huh. Yeah, yeah, I think that was. Yeah, the young adult was the one who got affected.

Speaker 2: 1:58:30

That's good call. And you said no, you've said it again. I was like there you go. It's good man, it's heavy.

Speaker 3: 1:58:36

How are you feeling? Yeah, I'm good man.

Speaker 2: 1:58:40

Anything you want to add. You want to wrap it up soon.

Speaker 3: 1:58:46

Yeah, yeah, I think so Nah, it's been good, hey. So look, let's just August, if anything, just Tell us about your art show, yeah, the exhibition, yeah, yeah, that was the whole point, oh kind of yeah. So yeah, I have an exhibition in May at Bad News Gallery in Wollongong.

Speaker 2: 1:58:57

Crown Street, Wollongong, Sydney.

Speaker 3: 1:59:01

Yeah, yeah. So legends there at Bad News Gallery have been doing holding down a gallery for a bit now, which isn't easy, but it's the same kind of crowd running Wonderwalls and through Simon Grant and Brett Randall and just the Wollongong creative community has always been really tight-knit and supportive, which is super, super mad. So fortunate to feel a part of that. Yeah, so yeah. But these works I've been working on for, I said, years. I've just been plugging away and working at my technique and then kind of have really dialed in on detail and really enjoying that. And it's one of those things I've been really struggling with. And, as I said, that piece there, I completely repainted it because of the progression.

Speaker 3: 1:59:48

So it's been a while I've been working on all these paintings. I finally feel like they're ready to be shown, so I'm pretty excited. It's not like a show to try and make money or to sell heaps of art. It's more just to put paintings on the wall and if anything it's a selfish thing, it's for myself. I actually hate opening night of a solo show. I've only done it a couple of times, but it's the fucking pits. I hate it. Why.

Speaker 3: 2:00:14

Because I don't like attention. That's not why I paint, so I love a group show. Group shows are awesome because you get to see other people's works and you get to celebrate everybody. I don't like it feels very vain doing a solo show, but it's just part of being an artist, you know, like being a visual artist presenting the work.

Speaker 2: 2:00:35

Does it come with a little anxiety as well? Just from small talk man Are people going to show up or you get that sort of worry.

Speaker 3: 2:00:43

Not anymore. Okay, no, in the past I would have, but no, not anymore. As I said, the people whose opinions matter to me. I'm interested to see what they say, but I love criticism. So I love getting my daughter out here and going what doesn't look right, what don't you like? Don't tell me what works, because the children are so frigging honest right. So if she's like, oh, that doesn't look quite right, I'm like thank you, I thought so right. So I love constructive criticism. So if people come and say they don't like the work, then why Please tell me? Because I want to get better.

Speaker 2: 2:01:19

Okay, so you also see it as an opportunity for progression?

Speaker 3: 2:01:23

A hundred percent and, as I said, it's a stepping stone. It's like put that show out there. It's a stepping stone and as like it's that thing I've always thought, but Rick Rubin talks about as well it's like let it go so you can go to the next thing. There's nothing more exciting about than having like a blank canvas in front of you or a blank wall, because you're just like yes, you get to just tuck into this. It's near the end of a painting, that's what sucks, and you're just struggling to get it finished so you can pack it up and start the next one. Okay, dude.

Speaker 3: 2:01:53

Yeah, it's not about oh, I can't wait to finish this so I can post it and get heaps of likes, Like that's not the motivation. So yeah, for me it's just that exciting thing about just getting it on the wall.

Speaker 2: 2:02:05

Is that part of the letting go process?

Speaker 3: 2:02:07

100%, 100%. It's kind of that letting go and it's also trying like I definitely do care. It's funny, like the people that I love getting respect the most from is graffiti artists. When a graffiti artist says they like my work, it's the best compliment in the fucking world because to me I could never've I've toyed with graffiti. I just it's something I struggle with. I have so much respect for the graffiti culture and so much for what they do, um, and working on mural festivals or working with guys who just have that key and control, who just have that just knowledge of color, and just all that to me is what I respect so much so yeah the best.

Speaker 3: 2:02:45

The best would be if, like there's a few graph heads turn up and say they like my shit. I'll be like all right, I don't give a shit what anyone else says, because they're staunch critics, hey.

Speaker 3: 2:02:53

I don't know if there's so much staunch critics. I think it's just that I respect their culture so much and respect their community and respect their opinion because I respect their skills and their talent and what they do. And I think a lot of people from outside don't understand. They'll probably look at me paint a mural and go but that's way better. And I was like, yeah, but look at that line he made there. I can't make that line. He can learn that and I've seen graffiti artists go from graffiti to murals and to fine art and they already have colour theory, they already have technique, they already know all these things. It's a lot easier for them. You know, it'd be like a bodyboarder learning to surf from a guy who's only ever skated learning to surf. The bodyboarder already knows how to ride a wave or read the ocean and everything.

Speaker 2: 2:03:39

You know, what I mean.

Speaker 3: 2:03:41

It's kind of a bad way to explain it.

Speaker 2: 2:03:43

That's a perfect way, I think. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of a bad way to explain it. That's a perfect way, I think. Yeah, skating doesn't translate into surfing.

Speaker 3: 2:03:47

No no. Maybe more snowboarding, but then a skier's probably going to pick up snowboarding quicker than a skater right there you go yeah, okay, I got sidetracked there. But yeah, for me the criticism and everything like that, if no one turns up, that's cool, just turns up, that's cool, just hanging them on that wall the moment before it opens that's what I'm going to enjoy the most. Right, yeah, it's getting it done and yeah, just working on something that's it's fun hanging it on the wall yeah and you're not playing it.

Speaker 3: 2:04:13

You're not playing it safe yeah, yeah, yeah I love that, yeah, it's gonna be cool to like get it up, and and especially being in this little studio, I can't just hang the works up and see how it's going to look, yeah, so it's all in my head. So you've got to kind of get this going to work, and that's why I've actually got more art than I need for the space, so I can actually take stuff up and go, no, that's not going to work, carl, yeah, use that for something else, or paint over it, yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:04:42

Well, I'll put links in this episode's show notes to the Bad News Gallery and some of Kane's work the artist known as Trait. But go and see his art show at the Bad News Gallery in May.

Speaker 3: 2:04:53

May. Yep, first week in May. So 2nd of May will be opening night, yeah, on a Thursday night, and then it'll run for, I guess, in a week.

Speaker 2: 2:05:01

Epic. Yeah, go and check it out and be part of his letting go process.

Speaker 3: 2:05:05

Yeah, yeah, yep, sure Thanks, Shannon.

Speaker 2: 2:05:08

Mr Cain Horsepool, everyone Trait yes boss, yes, boss.