#221 - James McMillan: The Artistic Surfer's Guide to High Vibrations and Well-being.

Embark on a journey with the enigmatic James McMillan, where we sweat under the Mullumbimby sun, surrounded by the verdure of sprawling cow pastures, and discuss the vibrant world of art, and surfing. James, an artist, author, and the mastermind behind the thriving Byron Bay Surf Festival, delves into life since our last exchange back in 2021 - which I will add - was the most listened to episode of that year.
We traverse the realms of high vibrations and well-being, riding the waves of serenity, meditation, and the holistic embrace of a good meal—this episode is all about the practices that enrich our souls.

As we wind through James's studio, we uncover the emotional spectrum of a surfer-artist's life, where creativity surges like the tide. From the restorative power of community in an artists' hub to the intersection of cultural modalities and alternative lifestyles, we're painting a picture of a life far from mundane. Share our reflections on the transformative influence of nature, the art of forgiveness, and the intricate process behind each brushstroke. James's wisdom on embracing diverse cultural practices, the challenges of gentrification, and the future's embrace of unconventional living will leave you contemplating the canvas of your own life.

Wrap up your listening experience by tuning into our celebration of the artistic spirit. James McMillan, in his element among his fellow craftsmen, offers a glimpse into a close-knit community where ideas flow as freely as paint on canvas. From stories that resonate beyond the art itself to the vibrant synergy of passions, this episode is a kaleidoscope of inspiration that beckons you to question the very definition of 'normal.' Join us for a conversation that's not just about observing life, but actively shaping it with colour, energy, and a few tantric breathes in between.
Enjoy,
Shan

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Transcript

Shannon: 0:22

Hey, it's Shan here. This week I speak with James McMillan. James has been on the show. Last time was in 2021 at the height of the COVID lockdowns. It was an online recording and for some reason, the things that he said in that conversation really hit a chord with a lot of people and it was the most listened to episode of that year and we'd planned to have another recording together at some stage.

Shannon: 0:50

So it's been about two and a half three years, except this time we meet in real life and we record in his art studio in the hills of Mullambimbi, new South Wales, east Coast of Australia, near Byron Bay.

Shannon: 1:04

It was post rain, it was humid, really hot, and it was right on dusk and his art studio has like a big garage door, so we had that open and it was surrounded by his art and there was no wind and we were just sweating it out and just talking story. He's a wise man and in a lot of ways he's been such a mentor to me over the years, like we stayed in contact since our first recording and we had a lot of phone calls, text messages and he was giving me advice on certain aspects of life and I'm very grateful for James and I know that he's someone that I'll be friends with for probably the rest of my life. Actually, he's a profound artist, he's an author, he's the founder and organizer of the Byron Bay surf festival. He's a lifelong surfer, spiritual man, man of faith, father and all round rad human. So enjoy my conversation with Mr James Macmillan. Everybody cheers.

James : 2:35

How's that? One, two.

Shannon: 2:36

You've got a good voice, yeah. Has anyone ever told you that?

James : 2:39

No.

Shannon: 2:39

I hear a lot of voices. Okay, and you've got a good one. It's good, it's got a good tone deep, ah one two. We just like social media it out real hard hey.

James : 2:51

Yeah, totally that's fun.

Shannon: 2:52

As an artist. What does social media mean to you?

James : 2:57

Just the way to show people the work I'm doing and actually like the creative process of making something. Real's are really fun, are they? Yeah, I love doing reals.

Shannon: 3:06

You're not like Auntie.

James : 3:09

No, I really enjoy it. I love like selecting little clips and then gluing them together and putting some music with it and then publishing something. Like you get to publish something in 10 minutes and it's so. It's creating something you know it's. I love the process and then, once it's out there, it has a purpose as well, because it shows people what I'm doing. So I really enjoy it. I do understand the other side. You're saying like. You know, there is a negative side for me too. Sometimes I can, you know, in the morning, when I get up and I want to want to meditate and I'm like, oh better, just check my list for today. So I have a look at the list and then I'm like, ah, just have a quick look at Insta, just in case someone sent me a DM, and then, bang, you're in there a bit.

Shannon: 3:49

Does it, does it drive sales?

James : 3:52

Yeah, does. Yeah, I get most of my commissions off. Instagram Interesting yeah.

Shannon: 3:57

I really feel like Instagram is just for artists and photographers.

James : 4:01

Ultimately? Yeah Well, it's not. I mean, what was it started as social media? I guess it's changed a lot since it started, from my understanding.

Shannon: 4:11

Instagram was different, though. It was just originally. Just he put a picture up. Yeah. I don't think you'd even comment. We could just write a caption and that was it. Yeah. There wasn't much interaction going on. Yeah, I thought it was stupid. The first time I've seen it I was like oh, yeah. Facebook's way better.

James : 4:26

Yeah, I don't even look at Facebook currently at all. A lot of my friends do, like some group of friends do and some don't. And when I when I actually do look at it, I'm like, well, they're actually doing lots of stuff over here and I have no idea about anything. They just, you know all the things that are happening in their lives and stuff like that. I don't see it. So I just don't like the platform, how it looks, I don't like the colors, I don't nothing Interesting. It doesn't appeal to me.

Shannon: 4:49

See the colors like it's something I've never thought of that.

James : 4:54

Yeah, right, yeah, okay.

Shannon: 4:55

It's very mainstream too.

James : 4:58

Hmm, yeah, the whole thing, the word, the guy behind it. I know the guy behind the same one behind Instagram, but I just had more fun on Instagram sending DMs and emojis and just quicker, and I don't know, do you consume mainstream news media Not at all Interesting?

Shannon: 5:15

No one does, which is Awesome. Yeah, so many people have turned away from it, really 100%.

James : 5:22

I mean, sometimes I feel a bit lost because I might have conversations at the beach with another couple of blokes or whatever and I start talking about this or that and I have no idea what. I understand the topic and I know the topic but I don't go into it. You know some of the current topics right now that you know I don't have when I mentioned them. I'm aware of them and I'm sympathetic and empathetic towards the whole thing and the people involved, but I don't get involved at all because I got my own little mission that I'm on and you know part of my little missions putting some other good stuff out there for you, hopefully as well.

Shannon: 5:56

So Do you find like that negativity can hinder or inspire you in your processes?

James : 6:08

Like my art processes in my life.

Shannon: 6:10

Like you know, like you know, connecting with mainstream news, current affairs and learning about what's going on in the world. Is it, can it be inspirational, or is it just making you feel negative?

James : 6:27

It doesn't make me feel negative. But I understand that lowers my vibration and where I like to vibrate at is a high place and I want to stay in that place because in that place I feel really good and then when I interact with other people they get that from me as well. So I'd rather be there for me and for other people. So I just try and stay there and I'm not. I don't sort of turn the blind eye to things. I still hear about them. But conversations I have with other people friends and people I meet they never go that way. I guess because I'm drawn to other, to people that are sort of talking about different things from mainstream media and I guess they're drawn to me for the same reasons and we have different conversations. You know they're still deep and they're still about, you know, things in our life and stuff like that, but not about mainstream news, which is mostly negative. Yeah, but I just sort of let it go.

Shannon: 7:27

What raises your vibration? Give me some examples.

James : 7:31

Surfing, meditating, good food, the sunshine, green grass, painting beautiful people like any humans that haven't had conversations and stuff like that. Praying, yeah, just stuff like that.

Shannon: 7:54

I love that. It's heaps of things.

James : 7:55

Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff, for sure Are you conscious enough to know what raises your vibration?

James : 8:02

Yeah, I just know, because when I wake up every morning and I look outside like I can't get up quick enough, like serious, like I cannot sleep in. When I wake up and my eyes open up and I see the blue sky or even the gray sky, I'm like, oh cool, let's do it again, like let's do this thing again, can't wait. And then just look at what I have to do that day and I just can't wait to do it.

Shannon: 8:25

And now last episode, which I will add. It was wildly popular, it got listens for, like it was like two or three years ago. Now, you know that, don't you?

James : 8:33

Yeah, it was two and a half years. I had a look yesterday.

Shannon: 8:36

Two and a half years ago, yeah, and it just continued to get listened after listened and it still does, and it was an online recording and I personally, like, wasn't happy with the quality of the audio. I remember I had some tech issues, but it just really reminded me that sometimes that stuff doesn't matter as much as the message being sent. And the message you were putting out there was really profound and you relate a story of an experience you had and you're in the depth of depression and something shifted. Where are you at with that journey? Is there still that, I guess, feeling of enlightenment following you around?

James : 9:17

It comes like it's something. There's something always there. There's something kind of. I feel like I've been doing some practices that I do, for I mean, I've been surfing for at least 35 years and been meditating, I think, for about 23. What else is cool that I do? But I think those things really lift your vibration or you could call it your state of mind or, you know, your experience of life, and I'm continuing to do those things and probably pushing in deeper and deeper with those sorts of things.

James : 9:51

And then I've been painting for 25, 27 years as well, and being around my art and all the colours and stuff like that, and I'm always researching, you know, looking at other artists and see what they're doing and stuff like that. All that stuff just keeps in a pretty high place and I spend quite a lot of time alone in my studio painting and also in the surf, which I don't mind, and all those things keep me in a pretty high place and I live a pretty clean life, like clean food. You know, don't party. I wouldn't call it partying. I socialise Occasional party. But yeah, you know not a huge drinker or you know no drugs or anything like that. I mean I get high off cacao.

Shannon: 10:42

It doesn't actually give you a high, because I know there's like cacao ceremonies.

James : 10:46

Yeah, I get high on my systems, really sensitive. I can have one glass of cacao and like when I'm painting, sometimes if I get a bit like I'm just a bit stuck and I'm a bit bored, I'll just go and make a cacao and then 30 minutes later I'm like oh, this seems like a pretty good idea. Didn't seem like a good idea before. I mean a different state of mind, and that was just for like three hours or something.

Shannon: 11:10

So would you compare it to like a caffeine high?

James : 11:13

Probably I've never had caffeine, but I've had black tea, which is in.

Shannon: 11:16

You've never had caffeine Coffee.

James : 11:18

I've never had caffeine. You've tried it Never? Oh no, I'm a widow.

Shannon: 11:26

I got unique Wow.

James : 11:28

Yeah, I've never had it, but there is black tea in, you know, in Chai, and that's like you get. It's like is that caffeine? I thought it was.

Shannon: 11:37

Yeah, it is. It's different to coffee, it's a different coffee. Yeah, it's more of like a sustained energizing. Yeah right, A stimulation.

James : 11:47

So I have had that. But I stopped having that a few years ago too because I was getting I got right into it for a little while the black tea in the Chai. There's this one called Byron Chai which is really nice, but it's got lots of black tea and I was getting super high some afternoons and I was into it, but then I just like it was not in a good place. So I was like, stop having that.

Shannon: 12:10

So I'm in a good place. In what way? Just anxious.

James : 12:14

Yeah, anxious, just going too hard with it, trying to get too high on it. I know it sounds weird because I speak to some people and they're like, what you get high on Chai? I'm like, well, I did 100%. And I think it's because, like I was talking to you about this morning, I didn't drink alcohol for 14 years and then when I had my first glass of vino or a beer, like 14 years later, I was like tipsy instantly and then anything I'd have after that, I was just like yeah high, like so quick.

Shannon: 12:45

So the cacao, yeah, my whole system's really sensitive. Are you emotionally sensitive?

James : 12:50

Everything.

Shannon: 12:52

Ever since you can remember.

James : 12:54

I think so, yeah, probably, but probably more so. Like you know, the thing you were talking about before the depression sort of stuff. Probably after I came out of that, probably even more so Like sensitive to like just everything, every feeling in me and like feelings in nature and like when other people are around, I kind of sense other people's feelings and just every tiny little thing I feel. So it's kind of like a blessing in the curse and it's like it can have you really high and can have you really low.

James : 13:28

You know, you can experience like extreme contrasts and understand for me when they're coming, like if I'm just like like super high, like for days and days, which is kind of normal, and then I'm like, you know, if I haven't got had much sleep, because sometimes I'll just be like so absorbed into like painting and surfing and like doing my life and stuff like that, I'll just like stay up really late and then get up really early to do it again because I just can't wait to do it again, and sometimes I'll nose dive because I wouldn't have had enough sleep. So then I'll just have a really long sleep in, like once every two weeks or something like that, and just recharge, and then I'm good to go again and I'll try and go level, but then I'll just get like, oh, this is too rad, like I'm staying up, I'm going to start to pain or stop and have that long conversation with my friend or with my son or whatever you know. So kind of just too rigid with it.

James : 14:23

Not really because I don't mind, like if I'm, if I get to a nose dive point. I kind of like I like the experience because there's a different experience and it feeds different things into me, like new experiences, and I'm like, oh, this is pretty cool, like write it down, like record this, because you won't have it again, probably for a while.

Shannon: 14:43

You know those moments, like when they're there. You're conscious enough to identify those moments that, like this is this is a special moment, it's an inspiring moment.

James : 14:52

Yeah, it's like a different moment. You know, I'm like feeling uneasy and thinking about not cool things and like, yeah, it's not not the most comfortable moment, but I still embrace it because I'm like, well, this, I know this isn't going to last long, so let's, let's, let's do something with this. Let me experience this and like write about it or paint about it or like do something with it.

Shannon: 15:15

That sensitivity is interesting. You know it's quite synonymous with people who have sustained childhood trauma, that emotional sensitivity which can be a blessing and a curse in their adulthood. You know a lot of people use it for creativity or propelling them forward in whatever they're into. Yeah. Does that resonate with you Um?

James : 15:42

I mean I've looked at that stuff a while ago childhood trauma stuff and I've still got a couple things hanging around that I sort of work on with this one therapist, which is kind of fun. I like that adventure of digging into things and seeing what's there and then working through them. So there is a couple of things I'm working on. One main thing and I think flat line experience of life is so boring. It's like what, what?

Shannon: 16:13

do you mean so flat line I'm feeling the same every day. Oh, it's flat lining.

James : 16:19

I guess I just said that because I was just looking at the fence out there and it was going straight across and I'm like, you know, like, imagine being on the same keel the whole time that to me, to some people they'd probably be stoked with that because it's like, hey, this is comfortable, this is easy and I'm calm. You know, nothing's going to happen to me, but and that's you know, I respect that and I understand that, but it's not for me, you know. And so when I, when those other things do come in, I, you know, I'm like, okay, cool, let's go with this for a bit, because I do really understand that it's not going to last. I know that 100%, you know. And, yeah, I know some people, you know, want to totally avoid that and not do everything and they can to avoid it.

James : 17:03

And I support some of my friends in that as well. You know, like I'm not feeling well, man, can I come and have a chat? And I'm like, yeah, come down the studio, just come anytime. You know, monday, tuesday, wednesday, I'll be there painting and come down. And I have friends that come here and they just pull up a stool and I just stop painting and we just talk for a couple of hours and have a hug, and then they leave and, like you know, they feel better and it's good.

Shannon: 17:27

You are very like a calm presence to be around. Have you been told that before?

James : 17:34

I have. Yeah, but I've never understood it actually, but I guess I've heard it a few times, yeah.

Shannon: 17:40

You're very like warm and I feel like I can really relax. I can only have to like tread on eggshells in any way. It's really nice.

James : 17:47

Yeah, cool, it's good to hear, nice to hear, it's a compliment for you.

Shannon: 17:52

Just don't let it go to your head, all right?

James : 17:57

Yeah, no, it's nice to hear things with people, experience and nice things you know, especially when you're unaware of them.

Shannon: 18:04

Obviously your life long surf. What drew you to the intersection of like art and surfing, and how do these passions kind of compliment each other and influence each other?

James : 18:19

Yeah, I think they definitely. I mean there is a crossover, I think. I mean I started surfing first before I sort of started really doing art, started surfing when I was 11 and started doing art probably when I was about 15 or 16. And I really just started doing the art because my dad was a drawer and a painter and a sculptor and my sister painted a lot too. And you know, I thought if my dad could draw, maybe I could as well, but I wasn't that good at drawing people, which I used to go and try and do in the city in Sydney, but obviously I was just starting on my art journey, you know.

James : 19:05

And then sort of, you know, then I sort of started painting a bit more up and you know, towards the 20s and stuff like that, and I guess I was just, I was like really interested in surfers that were, you know, creative pursuits like filmmakers, musicians, artists, writers and stuff like that. And I feel like that space when you're in, when you surf, it's, you know it's a really creative space if you want to have that perspective on it and for me I have that perspective like you get this wave and like you can do on that wave whatever you want to. You know, and it's like I think people and myself, you know, influenced by other surfers that you watch and you're like, oh, bottom, turn, hit the lip, bottom, turn hit the lip, or this cut back, or whatever. But you know, it's an open canvas and sometimes just going straight across the whole thing is actually a really cool moment as well. You know, just like to just draw that line all the way across, you know, and people are like what did you do, man? You didn't even do anything. On all their sections I was like, yeah, but it felt really good. They're like really Like, yeah, I actually did feel really good because you actually got a chance to feel it. But I'm not against going up and down, I love doing that on my shortboard, like just bottom, turn hit the lip and just like, you know, really getting into it. But I don't have other moments where I just want to go straight, just stand there, just stand there and feel it. You know, just feel that thing. It's only like five seconds that it'll be gone.

James : 20:34

But as far as the crossover thing goes, I don't know if I'm directly inspired, you know, by my art, by my surfing, I think, you know, maybe with colours and stuff like that potentially.

James : 20:49

But I think it's more the people and you know, the people that I've been inspired by that are surfers and things the crazier things they do and I had a long time when I was like riding into skateboarding too and like some of the skaters, like when I'd open Thrasher Magazine or Transworld, they'd always have an art section and I'd see these guys doing the art and I'd be like, oh wow, rad, and they'd be doing that in their spare time and stuff like that.

James : 21:14

So I really got inspired by actually a lot of the skaters and what they're into creatively. So, you know, I just really like looked at that as a really awesome lifestyle to live and I was like, well, my dad was an artist and you know I surf and I want to do both these things. So I started including those in my life and pursuing them and they really fed me personally how I like to be in the world and you know, and that's evolved over, you know, 25 years or whatever, but I'm still pursuing both of them, you know, more than ever and you know, and trying to surf as much as I can, which is almost every day, and almost painting almost every day.

Shannon: 21:56

I mean, if you're right, I mean, do you want to share your age? No, I don't have to share your age, but I'm just like you surf every day. Yeah, I mean, it just seems like it's fitter than ever and healthier than ever. Yeah, I mean, is that just directly linked to a lifetime of surfing and skateboarding, you think, or?

James : 22:15

I think so. I think, like I was saying you before, early today when we're having something to eat, or maybe this morning when we're having a chai, I think not drinking for all that. You know, and I've been sort of practicing yoga for a long time, probably 20 plus years, and then surfing like all the time, and then all those years of skateboarding too, I think, and I'm still really active now, like I've naturally got lots of energy, like I'm always up for doing things. I go, like hiking in the bush and I used to rock climb for a long time when I lived in Sydney as well, out in the Blue Mountains, and I did this good friend of mine called Adam Taylor, and so I did that for probably, you know, five to seven years I think, just being active and being vegetarian since I was 18. It's probably just the sum of all those things that have kind of allowed me to sort of keep pushing the way I push now and keep active. You know, and I'll never forget this guy in Kranala I used to sort of work at a surf school at Wandering Kranala, and this guy I can't remember his name, he had a classic old guy's name, I think it was like Sydney or something like that.

James : 23:29

And he lived at Guy Mere, which was a bit of a bike ride from Kranala, but he used to ride from Guy Mere to Kranala, come to Wandersurf Club. He kept his single fin there. He had these pair of dick stickers that was like down to his knees and his vest. He used to put his vest on, grab his single fin, walk down the beach he was 83 at this time and he'd go out, catch one wave or sometimes just sit there and then just walk back in, put his board in, have a coffee at the shop, get on his bike and ride back home. And he had one of those old racer bikes with the backwards handlebars and you know that was one classic.

James : 24:04

And I said, how do you ride down here every day? Like, how old are you, sid? And he'd home me one day I was 83. And I was like, wow, I can't believe you do this every day from Guy Mere, because I don't know how many Ks it is, it's probably 25 K around trip, I guess. And he's like, well, if you stop moving, you guys, you stop moving, you guys, if you keep moving, you can keep moving. And I was like I'm going to remember that later, when I have to, you know when I want to keep moving, and maybe if we're like I can't move, but I will keep moving because you told me and it works, I can see it. It does. So, yeah, and I believe that for sure.

Shannon: 24:42

Yeah, it's on my mind a lot as I age. I'm like if I stop doing these things now, am I ever going to start again? Yeah. And when I was living in Bali, you see the old rice farmers. Oh yeah.

Shannon: 24:54

Just insane. Like those guys are in their 80s and 90s and they're still out in the rice fields, harvesting, planting, working the fields, carrying big bales of grass and hay to feed the cows, and for them it's just pure, it's like a meditation and they know that if they stop they're going to die. And they just keep going.

James : 25:14

They love it being out there in a natural environment as well, yeah.

Shannon: 25:19

And we're in your beautiful art studio. It's special the land that it's on, surrounded by open fields, and I got here and we just really delayed getting started on the podcast because I just kept wanting to stand outside and absorb the serenity, because I'm not used to it. I live in like a city and I guess, like a question I have for you is how does the how would you say, the natural environment, but I guess particularly the ocean, but even this space like this, like, inspire and, I guess, inform your creative process?

James : 25:55

It's mainly the like every day that I drive out here. My house is only 10 minutes away, but when you come along the laneway here that goes for probably about you know six or seven minutes. It's such a beautiful, it's all covered in trees. You can see Mount Warning, you can see Mount Chincogan, mount Jerusalem, all these beautiful mountains. On your way out there's black cockatoos, there's like snakes, lizards, kangaroos. You see all that you know, and you just get this innate connection to nature and I never take it for granted Like every day, like one of the first things I do is just like be grateful for, like I always, I pray in the morning.

James : 26:32

I was just like so grateful for this, this, this, this, this and this. And then, once I've done that and I open my eyes up, I'm just like, yes, look at this, look what I get to do today. You know, even whatever work it is I do whether it's artwork or, I don't know, working on, you know, the festival that I do, or doing a bit of carpentry I just love it all. And then, coming out here, you know you've experienced the land, how it feels. It's just.

Shannon: 26:56

There's a feeling.

James : 26:57

It's definitely a feeling out here, for sure.

Shannon: 27:00

Had Jake McKenzie on the podcast. You know him.

James : 27:02

Yeah, I know Jake yeah.

Shannon: 27:03

I love Jake. Yeah, great man yeah, I mean he's, he just radiates depth and spirituality. That guy, he described these energy centers around the world and he's like I do. He goes I really believe there's just energy centers. Then that's why a lot of people are drawn to them for various reasons, and he's like you know, he really believes that Bali and parts of Bali are one of them, and he talked about somewhere in Mexico, he talked about New York. You know, maybe LA as well. Yeah.

Shannon: 27:33

And he's like, and Byron Bay, it's an energy center. He goes you can't deny it when you're on that land and that's why, like so many people come here and they're inspired and they're creative and they're just happy, like I've even noticed it like the contrast, because I don't live here and then I come here. I just, I just feel like more people are smiling. It's really interesting.

James : 27:53

Yeah.

Shannon: 27:53

Just an observation.

James : 27:55

No, it is this land's really special, its own, but I really a, a, a Sannyasin actually, this land.

Shannon: 28:01

Oh who.

James : 28:02

A Sannyasin, like a.

James : 28:04

A Sannyasin is a disciple of Osho, which was a spiritual community.

James : 28:09

I think that was out of I think it was out of Oregon actually, I could be wrong, but yeah, in California, and a lot of people from Byron went over there to join that community, and you know, and then when it was over, they came back here and and this place is owned by by an ex, one of those guys, and he's a beautiful man, he's a photographer and yeah, and I had a friend of mine out here the other day and she's a, she's a psychic, she's an amazing woman. But she got out of a car and she was like whoa, what's going on here? Like what is this land? Who owns it? Like who's the who's behind this? And now she was feeling all this stuff and yeah, it is.

James : 28:50

But you know, there's that side of it. And then it's just the natural beauty that you see when you look out here and you see the grand heels, and then the sun sets behind that single palm tree there. It's just, it is really beautiful spot and it's really quiet here and it's a. It's a good space to to create for sure, you know, without any outside influences.

Shannon: 29:08

Do you think you could produce the same works if you did it from your residential place?

James : 29:15

Um, I seem to be able to, yeah.

Shannon: 29:18

I still can.

James : 29:20

I had this, my studio, at home, for a long time. I've been here for about two years and I had my studio at home, you know, downstairs in my house in a big room down there, for probably 10 years. Um, it was a bit crowded. He definitely feels better and and I guess I've been able to get more work done and and stuff like that. Um, but I think my state of mind is different out here, for sure, there's like more, you know, it's just all open. There's the sky out there and I think it opens you up to sort of new ideas and different ideas can come in and and you can walk out and be out in the in the air straight away. And sometimes the horses come by and the cows and stuff like that, and I think you know all that, all that stuff kind of inspires my state of mind and like, yeah, and the ideas I get and stuff like that for sure.

Shannon: 30:10

You said that you you pray most mornings. Yeah. Who do you pray to?

James : 30:16

God.

Shannon: 30:18

God of your own understanding.

James : 30:19

Well, I guess my understanding of God's changed over the years, for sure. Um, you know, I grew up in a Christian school, catholic church and stuff like that, and I guess I got taught that God was a man in the sky with a white beard and you know, and I used to look up there and think he was up there somewhere. But I guess my understanding of God's changed. Um, definitely, for me God means a higher power and, like you know, all the sauce, or, like you know, the presence that's never an absence. Um, but, yeah, pray to God and um, yeah, and Jesus sometimes depends on what, what the subject is and what sort of I'm looking for that day.

James : 31:04

And to me, you know, praying is. You know from my experience, which has been a long time doing that, and also sort of, you know, research and manifestation and stuff like that. They're almost the same thing, they're pretty much the same thing. Like, I've looked at both sides scientific side, the spiritual side and done both myself, you know. Well, I see what I wanted to do was I got teach you that you guys have two needs at. They're pretty much the same thing as far as I'm concerned. Yeah.

Shannon: 31:29

Interesting. Yeah, give more of a conversation there, but like yeah, no, it's good to get your perspective and take on it. I think more people need to do it and I think they need to, in my opinion, not let religious dogma prevent them. Yeah. And just experimenting with the act of praying or speaking to something else. Yeah. And turning their will over to whatever that is, as opposed to running off their own self-will. Yeah.

Shannon: 32:04

I feel like a human self-will is the source of all evil in our world. So when you speak to something else and humble yourself to that, it feels like and I don't know how it works. It just works, and I think people that have experienced will know what I'm talking about. Yeah. And it's just, and that's where the development of faith occurs. Yeah.

Shannon: 32:28

And it just seems like life just gets better when you continuously do that. You know, even if you're not a smart person and you don't want to overanalyze it, I guarantee, if you pray every day for a month, you're going to just notice that your life's getting better. Yeah. It's really interesting.

James : 32:45

Yeah, it is. It's definitely a good practice to have, for sure. Yeah, and I think just when words come out of your mouth, they're coming out of your body, so it's like it's coming out of you and all of a sudden it's out here in the ether, with God, the universe or whatever you want to call it, and things happen with that. You know there's a vibration in words, there's a vibration in desires and needs and wants and offerings, and one of the first, I think, things to make that happen in your life, one of the most powerful things you can do if you're praying or manifesting is first to forgive any forgiveness, as you need to do in your life. If you do those, first, take that energy back, because if you've got someone that's unforgiving in your life or a number of things, your energy is attached to that. I mean that person still did this thing wrong by me or my ex or whatever.

James : 33:58

It is Like resentment, resentment, yeah, but if you forgive that person or those people for those things and take that energy back to you and give that back to them, it'll free you up and you'll have more of your own energy back with you instead of having that sort of thing attached to them. So that's why it's called forgiveness, because you're like, you're forth, giving that back to them and you're keeping your energy here. That way, you'll have more to take into the future. You know of your own, so you're more whole. That's really profound. It's just the truth. It's just how it is. It's like, yeah, and you've noticed it in your life For sure. Yeah, I've managed.

Shannon: 34:39

You managed, would you say. You manage your resentments well and do you think you're getting better at the practice of forgiveness? Because I think it is something that needs to be practiced.

James : 34:49

Yeah, it's hard, definitely hard.

Shannon: 34:51

For me it's a resentment and holding resentment. So this before on the podcast, but it is. It's my biggest lifelong challenge. It's a challenge. I want to forgive. I know it poisons me, yeah. But I just hurt is sometimes deep and I just don't want to let it go.

James : 35:08

Yeah. So yeah, I'm totally hearing you, man. It's hard, it's hard to forgive, you know, and there's people that do, you know, wrong things by other people and people get hurt, and I've been one of them as well, as you have and as all of us probably have. But you know, I did write a list of about 10 things down, that things I wanted to forgive people for in my life and is that a method you used? That's what I used.

Shannon: 35:34

Yeah, can you break it down for us? I think it'd be really helpful for people to hear.

James : 35:38

It was pretty easy. I mean I just write down, you know, like number one was like my dad, you know, dad, why'd you leave me? You left me when I was two years old. I was abandoned, you know. You went and married someone else, had other kids, like I felt, shoot out, you know.

James : 35:53

And I've never actually forgiven him for that, you know. And he, you know he might not think he needs to be forgiven, but for me I've held that against him, you know. And then then I was like, you know, my mom's boyfriend that she had, that was an alcoholic and he used to, like you know, be violent towards my mom. And I remember one day thinking to myself when he was no longer with us and we saw, we sort of we ran away from the house that we were in because he knew we were there, and I mentioned that in the last podcast, you know. And I said one day I was 35, I said that guy I want to kill him, you know.

James : 36:30

And so part of my list when I write these things down was like, you know, forgive my dad, forgive Ray, you know, and just the other things. And I just went through them and I closed my eyes and I was like dad, you know I don't understand why you left, but but you did and you know you're just a, you're a man and I'm a man and we're humans and things happen to us and I forgive you, you know, and I and I love you and you know I still been hurt by it. But like I forgive you for doing it and you know saying, or you know so, did that one, then I just did the next one and each time I did it I just kind of, I just totally let it go.

Shannon: 37:07

I was like no, that's gone, I'm not gone, and I just did that like through the whole thing and you were able to let it go, because I know for me too, I can do it. Yeah. And then it'll have a period of time where I'll let it go. Yeah. And then, a couple of days later, it's back again. You can do it again.

James : 37:24

Yeah, we'll look at might not be like like I sort of I guess when I did it, when I did mine, I didn't just do it with the words I kind of like I closed my eyes and I tried to like picture the energy of that unforgiveness come up out of my body and just kind of release it out of my system. Like I kind of went through a bit of a thing.

James : 37:43

I just didn't say it, I kind of felt it with my eyes closed and I just felt that through meditation, yeah, and not really just with my eyes closed, just simply close my eyes and just like, yeah, I don't forgive you for this and that, et cetera, and then I just kind of that wherever that was in my body, like because you store that stuff in your body.

James : 38:00

I just went to that place where I felt it and just like kind of ejected it out of my body and it felt more like it had left me. Yeah, it's not to say I still don't think about those things, but they're just because I physically did that to me, it makes sense that it's gone out of my body and I've left it with them and that's with that one, that's with that person and that's with that person. I really forgive them. You know I do because that's gone, it's in the past and I feel better for it.

Shannon: 38:26

Yeah, you know how. Do you know how the 12 step recovery program teaches people to forgive and let go of those things?

James : 38:36

No.

Shannon: 38:37

So in step four of 12 step recovery programs, like you probably heard of the 12 steps which I've heard of it, yeah, but I just didn't know where it was. It was just really game changing, and it does. It strips away the layers of your ego massively and, similar to what you do, you write down a list of all the people that have harmed you you know and what they did to you.

Shannon: 38:58

Sometimes it's terrible and it's justifiable. And then you have to identify like, what about that? What they did to you actually was, you know, scaring. You Use it because it was leading to financial insecurity. Maybe they were challenging like you're, you know you're going to lose sex, or things like that. It was related to sex. Yeah.

Shannon: 39:19

They're going to take that away from you, we're going to lose that, or they're going to give it to someone else, things like that, or even just physical fear, things like that.

Shannon: 39:27

And then, once you've done that, then you have to reread it and then identify, like your part in that, in how they've harmed you and we always have a part in it. So sometimes, like your part could be that you actually gave too much time and energy to a toxic person. You know and you have to take and you have to be accountable for that, and it's like it's I mean, it's a humbling experience and when you actually start to really honestly think about what my part was in that harm that they did, you can almost, in nearly 99% of cases, you can almost always find your part in it. And the only time I think that it's really unjustifiable is maybe through, you know, terrible sexual assaults, you know and things like that. But most times you can always find your part in things. And then the next level of that is, once you've done that the people that you've made done harm to and you've discovered your part in how they harmed you, you've then got to go to them and make an amends.

James : 40:27

Physically go to them.

Shannon: 40:29

Yeah, Well, there's.

James : 40:30

You know, sometimes yeah, or on the phone or something On the phone or a letter or if, like, I mean if you stole money off them you're just going anonymously send them the money back.

Shannon: 40:39

Yeah. And I'm telling you, man, like it's hard, it's raw, it's nasty, it churns up all sorts of stuff, but God damn, you're free. You feel free afterwards because, you've just you've taken total responsibility. But not a lot of people do it and I don't do it very well. I've done it.

Shannon: 41:00

And there's probably and I've still got amends I need to make you know and I've harmed other people that I need to go and probably still make amends for when the opportunity arises, but by doing all those things for me personally that put me on a trajectory to some type of spirituality.

James : 41:19

Yeah, anyway, that's interesting man, it's powerful.

Shannon: 41:23

I think for me it was. Maybe not for everyone, but it's just I was just identifying with how you were saying. You wrote a list out and I just think so many people will just ignore, ignore and put it away and avoid, and if you do that I've seen it time and time again it always will come up again. Yeah. Unless you really deal with it like you were talking about.

James : 41:47

Yeah, it's pretty confronting. But yeah, if you can do it, I think you'll notice a change for sure.

Shannon: 41:52

Well, it just takes courage.

James : 41:54

And to know that, like I can do this. You know, that's why it's good to share these stories. I think you think so. Yeah, I think so for sure, like the cafe and the surf or whatever. You know, if it's the right person, don't go and say this to anybody, but if it comes up, you know, I'll happily share things with people for sure, and you know, maybe it'll inspire something that they might think oh, maybe I can try that too.

Shannon: 42:16

Do you think your art? Going back to your art, do you think your art resonates with non-surfers?

James : 42:23

Yeah, I think so for sure. Yeah, the last kind of look. I don't even remember the last few paintings that I've done for people I mean, they have been surfers but I don't think they're drawn to it because it's like I mean, when I look around here, I can't see much to do with surfing in my art. I mean, what do you see in my art?

Shannon: 42:47

Okay, from my very I'm not definitely no art critic. I just think it just screams spirituality, like I see like a dove that kind of reminds me of the word grace. I see an all seeing eye. I see crosses. I see someone meditating and their common themes. That's kind of what I see. I see more, so much more than surfing. I think what does draw me and make me feel like it's surf related is definitely the colors, like that blue that you use and also like the way you do your clouds reminds me of white water.

James : 43:29

Yeah, I think, more so that I think it's because I am a surfer and probably the small audience that I have, like you know, on Instagram or in my circle of people I know and stuff like that, as know me as a surfer and maybe they're the people that mostly see my art Are they the ones that mostly buy your art.

James : 43:50

No, no, mostly. I mean, the last person I sold a painting to was in Florida and he was a real estate agent, you know. So, you know. And then the one before that was someone in Canberra. Yeah, so it's also people. I'm just, you know some people that approached me on Instagram. I don't know where they've seen it or whatever, but people just find things somehow and they connect with something unique in the painting and usually it's something in there and they want something similar, you know, and that's always interesting. I always try and talk to them too and find out what do you like about that one? You know where's it going to go, and all that sort of stuff, because that's connected with people is really cool part of the process. Yeah, yeah, I love that part, you know.

Shannon: 44:40

What about when they want a commission piece? Yeah. And you're not vibing Well, but you need the money as an artist, because artists need money. Yeah for sure. We need to support the arts.

James : 44:53

Well, usually it's like I said, usually it's something they've seen before and they might, you know, like pick, they might. Oh, I really like this one here. Can you do something for me similar to this? But I'd love it where you got pink to be green. And I'm looking at that one there, because that one was for a house in Fingal and I painted it to like what they wanted, the colors and everything. And then when it went up in the house, you know, one of the people in the partnership said, oh, I really like it, but if it was green where it's pink, I think it would work better. And I said, oh, I can't really do much about that now it's finished. So. So they said, oh, can you do this? Another one, and I was like, well, I could, but that one's already been done and you know, so there's money involved there. So anyway, we worked it out. But I mean, yeah, I'll still do the.

James : 45:50

The painting is not every time, but if they're pretty close to something I enjoy painting, I'll, I'll still do it. But, yeah, they get, they won't be as enjoyable as, as you know, some of the other ones, but I'll still do my very best, you know, to create the piece and and have a connection with it. Because I think when you're if, if I have a, you know, if there's work that I've done in the past, like for an art show or something that I've had to do really quick and I'm not that connected to it, when people walk up to it and look at it, it really comes across. You know, you can see people either feel something from the painting or or a little bit or a lot, and I know if I'm really connected to it and I've put a lot into it, they really connect with it more as well. Something just happens. So, yeah, there's definitely something special that happens there. The more you put it into it, the more people feel. But yeah, I mean this is what I do.

James : 46:42

Some people one person asked me to do a dog for them once, you know, and I just said I don't do dogs. I said, like, have a look at all my art on my website. That's what I do, like I'm not a mainstream artist that would just paint anything, you know, and I mean I do a few logos and stuff like that for people, but I always do them in my kind of you know, whatever my style is, because that's how I do things the best and the easiest, you know. And I have got friends that can do anything. You know someone wants this done or that done. Yeah, I can do that. They're really good illustrators, you know, so they can do anything. But I've just got the things I do and this is what I do. So if it fits in amongst what I do, I'll do it for you. Do you have a?

Shannon: 47:25

particular piece that's especially significant to you personally, whether it's like because of the creative process or the message it conveys, or To have one piece that like really is like for you.

James : 47:42

It's probably the one at home in my lounge and to do, do and smoothie. See it there yesterday. I think I've seen a few the one big one in the lounge, yeah.

Shannon: 47:50

Yeah, yes, over near the lounge. Yeah, right, the one over the lounge around off to the right.

James : 47:55

Yeah, that's the one, no way. Yeah, that one's that one's cause called. It's called cosmology, and I guess it was like it was the last in a series of like Waterbird paintings that I had been doing. Since 2000, and Probably for about 12 years or something I've been doing these waterbird paintings and that was the very last one I did and it was in a show and and it was really funny because I put it in there and I was like, oh, my god, I really love this one, I want to hit this one in the family.

James : 48:23

And then someone came up and I wanted to buy it and I and the guy came and told me, hey, someone wants to buy this one. And and I looked at it and I said, oh, can you tell him that? So put a sticker on it and I want it. And he's like you know, and obviously he was a bit disappointed because it was his gallery and they make commission off paintings and stuff like that. But he did it for me, which was really nice of him and and I took it home at the end and it was funny because then the guy that wanted it, he, he ordered another one. So I painted another one, the same, and I ended up painting three of those the same, like someone else Wanted one someone else wouldn't want.

James : 49:00

So there was really something special about that painting and I think because I put a lot into it, because I knew it was the last one of that series, because I was like that's it, I'm not doing any more of these, I want to move on to something else, which is these ones here and yeah, and I think something really came across in that one for people and that's why I think I did three you know three recreations of it sort of thing and I've got and you know they're all original paintings, but I've got the first one, which is the one that was at home yesterday, and that one really means a lot to me because it's like when I saliva up at Malambimbi, behind behind Malambimbi, up on the mountain there, I was on this beautiful mountain in this gorgeous studio and painting a lot.

James : 49:38

I was up there for two years on my own and and it was just a really special time as a transitional period for me from moving up from Crenella to here and yeah, it was a big life changing couple of years but to have that two years by myself, just sort of surfing and and painting and spending time with my two sons, and Especially up there, you know, up in immersed in nature. Everything came out on that painting. It was like Mount warnings in the background and the big tree that's outside my house was there and there's, there's a little cabin that I booked there and all the birds and everything, yeah. So I guess it's like a memory of that time up there, you know, and, yeah, that one's really special. I'm glad to keep that one family forever.

Shannon: 50:22

Yes, dude, yeah, what a legacy. I said legacy a lot. I always talk about legacy. Yeah, what are we leaving in this world? Yeah you know You're leaving all these beautiful pieces that are gonna be timeless.

James : 50:34

Yeah, it's a cool thing. I love when you talk about legacy. I like that.

Shannon: 50:37

It's. It's true. I think, like I've thought, I've said this story a lot, but you know, going to a lot of funerals actually got me thinking about it. I'm like. Yeah, what am I really leaving in? What am I living in the world? I want to leave something kind of profound. Yeah and I think artists are doing it all the time. Otherwise, you know most people. I'm just gonna leave a bunch of photos, maybe, maybe like a soccer trophy from under 12 soccer. Yeah.

Shannon: 51:01

For a lot of skateboarders. It's like maybe photos I've got in magazines like they're really important. You know it's significant, but yeah, that's why I'm so drawn to artists, because I just think they're just creating timeless pieces artifacts. Yeah, potentially.

James : 51:17

What would you call? I mean, your legacy is his podcast, isn't it?

Shannon: 51:21

Do you reckon?

James : 51:21

Well, I think about all the people on it that I listen to and stuff like that, and there's some really inspiring Conversations and that stuff's forever. You think, well, yeah, I think it's always gonna be a library of like interviews, conversations, and I think that you you have a particular you know there's a thread for sure you can tell that you care and and it comes through in the conversation. So it's like you know, imagine, in a hundred years, if you know we're not here, we probably won't be and people can like access your library.

Shannon: 51:53

You know what I mean Like I've been thinking a lot lately about maybe some ideas for me, like I want to, because some, some amazing things have been said on here, yeah, and and so much. But seen the digital world, you know, and these digital directories I use social media to promote it and you know, when I pass away is like, what are people gonna do? They're gonna go through my Instagram. Like I'm trying to think about how I can make these voices more tangible and, and Some fans my mate that's cool.

Shannon: 52:27

Yes, I like. How can I? How can I make these, these voices and these stories more tangible and timeless, whether it's maybe put them into a book of some type? I've thought about that. Yeah, because that's that's ultimately why I do it. I'm not really doing it for, like, notoriety or fame. It's definitely a form of therapy for me. You know it's just taking me a while to admit, but I'm really open about it.

Shannon: 52:53

Yeah every time, like I learn from every single person I speak to. I'm gonna have flown so much from you today, like even before the podcast, when we had like I wish we had microphones at the cafe this morning. I was a rad convo.

James : 53:05

Yeah, yeah, I don't know if I'd like to come. I'll hit me up with some questions from then and see if I go there.

Shannon: 53:14

I don't know, I mean just because you're unique and you're conscious and you Don't want to follow the status quo and yeah, when you know this exploration into things like and these aren't, these are quite common, like you know. Tantric breathing tantric practices. That's interesting shit, yeah, but it's also healthy and it could be so healthy for a lot of people. But it's still a little bit taboo and maybe a little bit awkward to talk about yeah you know public forum like this.

James : 53:47

Yeah, for sure, I think it is. I think I mean, when you have conversations like we did, you know, I don't know how many people in that, there's what 50 people there I wonder how many of those people could have joined in the conversation. You know what I mean what do you mean? Well, like you know, we're in Byron Bay and it's like a you know bubble kind of thing of you know these kind of energy center, that's an energy center, for sure.

James : 54:14

But I think these kind of conversations that we were having this morning a bit more maybe accepted and Maybe even known up here, you know, because people come here and they kind of explore in those different sorts of ways and you know, and it sounds like a cliche and but it's true, people do do that stuff up here and there's people that take it too far.

Shannon: 54:34

And then there's like that know you know that woke wokeism, yeah, which can be kind of off-putting, but you can't deny, because you can't deny the efficacy of some of these practices, like you can't deny that growing your own food on a permaculture space and recycling, you can't deny that that's not better for your health, you know. You can't deny that. You know, in a loving relationship, practicing tantra with someone that you love, you can't deny that that's going to increase your level of connection and synchronicity. And it's just because it's different. It's like people don't, it's like what's wrong with you? But it's like, okay, we'll keep going the way you've been going, like doing the same thing and getting the same miserable result every time.

James : 55:18

And I think because they're attached to different things. You know they're attached to different cultures. You know Jesus is attached to Catholic and Christianity, but he was just a man. Tantra is attached to like the ogre can hindu kind of culture in a way as well, and people might not be into that. So they're maybe they're not into that, you know. And it's like if you separate them, because we, I think we put those in those different places, you know what I mean. So if you kind of separate them from those, you know I've got a kind of almost unlearn and just come in with like a child's mind.

James : 55:48

You know I'm just super like, fresh, innocent and just take it for what it is. You know, whether you actually do it or not it's one thing, but Maybe being open to stuff is a really good start and I'm always open to stuff, you know, I can talk about. I love hearing all different sorts of things or different philosophies, different religions, cultures, spiritualies or whatever. But I might not take it on, but I'm still open to listen to it because that's all interesting. You know, maybe you take one little bit and be like, oh yeah, that would be really good. I'll add that to my journey. You know my adventure? Yeah, my personal one, because they're all different, they're all so different.

Shannon: 56:23

It is, and I think that's why it's it's so important to continually get out of your cover zone and connect with People that you usually wouldn't connect with that are different to you, even people that you think have opposing viewpoints, and if they do take the time to actually understand their, their viewpoint, and you may still not agree with it, but there may be elements of it that help you further develop your own one and.

Shannon: 56:50

Do you think like, given the access to information that we have as a society and as a world, do you think people are becoming more, more open and more willing to try different modalities for living?

James : 57:06

Yeah, I do. I do think that, yeah, for sure, I feel like, with the more I mean, for some people, I think it should maybe be a bit confusing. I think for others it's like a goldmine, because they're like, oh cool, I'll research this thing, you know, and you only have to tap one thing on your phone on Instagram, and then you'll get a flood of that information you know, and you can learn about it. And then you can, like, start going into something else and you'll start hearing less about that stuff and more about the new stuff you just tapped. And that's what I do. I'll just be like, oh, this sounds interesting, so I'll click on that and tap on that, and then get a flood of that for the next few days and then learn about it and be like, no, I'm not really into that, so then I'll just tap on something else and I'll get a bit more of that.

James : 57:46

I think it's definitely for some people works, positive for some people and negative for other people. You know it depends on their, you know their personality type and stuff like that. But I all in all, think it's a good thing. You know what I mean for sure. I can definitely get stuck on there. Sometimes myself and I can't time, can just slip away. You know you're like, oh my god, 20 minutes I've just been looking at this guy or this girl's thing, why. Why was I down that rabbit hole? But yeah, there's definitely an access to some really good information out there.

Shannon: 58:24

Yeah, I think so and I think people are starting to look for solutions because of just how you know miserable they are and just how dark the world is in a lot of ways. And I think you know people are starting to be more open to alternative approaches and they are becoming more aware that the old ways aren't working. You know, maybe it's time to let the old ways die, and I see it more and more and then when you come to it, I think Byron and this area kind of magnifies that and it's an example of that to the rest of the world. And yeah, it's so easy to come here and criticise and see some people in linen pants and just go oh god, whatever. But if you sort of look beyond that, some good messages out there.

James : 59:07

I think it's a melding part of everything up here, isn't it? You see everything I mean. You see, you know the linen stuff. You know, in Malambim, for example, it's so close to my studio you see people with lots of money, people with no money. You see artists, you see straights, you see gays, kids, old people, farmers everything's mixed in there, you know, and it's like you have to be open to things in a place like this because everyone's just so different. You know what I mean. There's people sleeping on the street over there, you know, and then someone will pull up in MCDs and it's so different. But it's also so interesting, you know, and I love being up here for those reasons. You know what I mean, because I feel comfortable. I feel like I walking down the street with, like you know, my painting gear on, with paint all over me or no shoes on yeah, or whatever, you know, just to go and get something to wear.

James : 59:59

And if I want to dress up, sometimes I dress up in the pretty wacky. I'm like I don't know. I just felt like doing that today, like sometimes I put those necklaces and beads on and go up to my home and get something to wear, you know, because I just feel like looking a bit weird and no one flinches, no one flinches.

James : 1:00:13

They're like oh cool man, where'd you get that? You're like oh yeah. So I think it's like it really opens people up to like alternative ways of doing, thinking, being, which is a good thing, I think.

Shannon: 1:00:27

There's an obvious gentrification of the area. It's hard to miss and you can see there's a big gap between really wealthy and really poor and I've seen some where when I was skateboarding today at the skate park.

Speaker 4: 1:00:42

it's a tent city just in the bush off to the side, you know, right in the centre of Bion.

Shannon: 1:00:47

And I just feel like there's going to be more and more of that, the way Australia is going especially. I know it's happening all over the world, but you know the cost of living and the rental crisis. People really are being forced down to the street. Like where do they go? You know, being in this space and living in this area and seeing that I mean, where do you see yourself fitting in it? Are you somewhere in between? Probably, and you can survive.

James : 1:01:19

Yeah, yeah, I can survive. Yeah, I mean, I was lucky to be in this area in late 2005, and I was lucky enough to get a house then. You know, and you know, things have changed a lot since then. But I think I see people now, like some of my friends that are, you know, in their 30s and stuff like that, and they're not even having those conversations, though, about, like, wanting a house or anything. A lot of them have just given up on that great Australian dream, Like they don't even talk about it. They're just talking about the next holiday or spending money on other things. They've just let it go, you know, and they're just like well, this is what I'm going to do, I'm going to be renting or living in my van or whatever. And people are finding creative ways to do things, you know, with, like, tiny homes on properties and different things like that. It's sort of opened up people's creative thinking in a huge way, because they have to survive.

Shannon: 1:02:16

Yeah, but the whole van culture stuff is I mean so many people living in vans now. Yeah. Full time, my parents included, living a school bus, retired, turned into a motor home. Yeah, nice. And now they've been living in it for like 14 years Because they just love that lifestyle so much. Like they're retired great nomad types, but they're just like. Why would we want to just live in the one place for the rest of our lives?

James : 1:02:38

Yeah, well, there's the upside of it. You know what I mean. It's like you go down to the bruns in the morning and there's the vans parked where they're parked, but they're waking up on the water. You know what I mean. They're like waterfront. Five grand home, ten grand home, they're waterfront.

Shannon: 1:02:51

Yeah, Like who's laughing really? Who's laughing now?

James : 1:02:54

Well, that's the thing. You know what I mean. It's like, and it's like unlearning again. You know like what's normal, what's not normal, and what have we been? What dream have we been sold, you know, since we were born?

Shannon: 1:03:05

Why is the Great Australian Dream, or even Great American Dream, so potent? You think?

James : 1:03:11

I think it's safety, comfort, all those things that like keep us yeah comfortable, I guess, and in a safe place, you know everyone.

Shannon: 1:03:20

But safe, but safe from what? That's what I'm always curious about. Like what are they scared of? Like are you going to have to move in six months?

James : 1:03:28

Well, I think this, I think I'm talking more about primal needs. Primal needs, yeah, I think so, because they're still within us, you know, like in the back brand, the amygdala. You know we still have those primal needs of like food, shoulder, sex. You know those things mainly. You know, and I think people still love to go into their home, whether it's a van or a tent or a house, and just have that quiet space to themselves, whether no one else is going to come in. They can have their own thoughts or their own, you know, do their own things or whatever, and feel safe from like, from harm. You know what I mean and they may not know that it might be just like comfortable, but I think in the back of our brain there is that, you know, sense of like I want to feel safe from harm, and you know predators or anyone coming into my space, you know, and so I think that's a big part of it for sure.

Shannon: 1:04:26

I think so. I was never really understood, even as a kid. I never understood the great Australian dream of like getting a mortgage unless you can buy a house outright. Yeah. I just never understood that. Why would you be paying this thing off for 30 years? And I would always, as a kid, I'd be like, well, you don't really own it. That bank still owns that. The bank owns that house. Yeah.

Shannon: 1:04:49

Like, oh, it's my house, no, no, no, the bank owns it. And I went to Malta on a holiday once because like I have Malta's heritage and I had some distant cousins there, you know, and I met them and one of them just got engaged. He's like, oh yeah, we're going to live with my parents until we have enough money for a house. And I, my automatic response is, oh, like to save a deposit. It's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, like we will buy it outright, you know.

Shannon: 1:05:12

And that's like that, and they'll live with their family until they have enough money to buy a house, not pay off a mortgage. Yeah. It's a real joke. But again, we're in a position now where, like, who's going to be able to, like, save a million dollars? Who's going to be able to save $200,000? You know what I mean. Like you can't, you can't even save that, so I don't know. It's interesting.

James : 1:05:41

It is and everyone's in different places, aren't they, you know? And different once, different things, different needs, and some people need lots to be comfortable and some don't need much. So I guess it depends what drives you and what you need, you know, and I personally don't need much. You know. I've probably got, like you know, I'm probably privileged from what I've already got, you know, and that's you know. I've got a house in the car and surfboards and I've got the studio. I work hard for it all and I have worked hard for it all.

Shannon: 1:06:11

but you know, still so you're able to sustain a full-time living just through art, mainly.

James : 1:06:17

No, I do, I do, I paint probably three days a week, and then I've got a carpentry trade, so I do that, you know, one or two days. And then I've got a friend that has a surf school, so sometimes he gets me in for a surf lesson and then you know. And then I have the Byron Bay Surf Festival that I do once a year Is that still running. Yeah, that's still running. Yeah, it's like 13 years, I think now, or something.

Shannon: 1:06:40

So for those that are unfamiliar, like break down what you do, what happens at the festival mainly.

James : 1:06:46

Yeah, well, the Byron Bay Surf Festival is an annual festival. We have it in August and it's a surf festival mainly, but it's a cultural festival, you know. So we have like films, music, art shows, special guests, you know, speakers and stuff like that, and mainly people from like the environmental kind of sector, you know, that want to sort of educate people on different things they can do in their lives and things that are happening in the world, to sort of stand our planet. And then we have, like you know, a surf competition and then free surfing events. Yeah, pretty much pretty much like that, you know.

Shannon: 1:07:25

How many years has it been running now?

James : 1:07:27

Well, it started in the first one, in 2011. So I think we're up to number 13 coming up this year in 2024.

Shannon: 1:07:33

Was there a hiatus through all the lockdown stuff?

James : 1:07:36

We still had it, we still were able to sneak it in, like because I think you know, things opened up a bit and it just happened to be the right timing and stuff like that. So we're able to keep going through, but it was only small in those couple of years and it's still when we did last year. It was still small-ish.

James : 1:07:51

But, I think people will start and open up to you know, getting a bit more confident that, oh, this is, like you know, back to normal. Whatever normal is now whatever, but back to you know we can do an event and know that's not going to be shut down or whatever. More free, more free, so yeah, so that's, yeah, it's a good festival, you know. It promotes good things within surfing culture and educates people on some really cool things too, on the environment and stuff like that. Yeah, nice, yeah, that's fun, do you?

Shannon: 1:08:21

have any sponsors for surfing, I mean?

James : 1:08:23

myself.

Shannon: 1:08:24

Yeah, do you get boards from anyone or anything like that? Sometimes, oh I do.

James : 1:08:28

Yeah, I guess I have Stuart Darcy Stuart Darcy surfboard. He's a shaper. He's been a shaper for a long time, so Darcy's been a like I guess you'd call it a sponsor for a while. You know he's been really generous with his surfboards, given me some surfboards and stuff like that. And then I do a bit of work with a surfboard company called Veruna and they're based in Bali but they're also in like in Bahrain and all around the world I think they're reaching out to. But they have a sustainable model where they grow their bolsa in Bali and they work with local communities there to sort of grow bolsa on their farmlands and then harvest it and then turn that bolsa into surfboards. And you know, you use eco-resins and stuff like that to try and make the most sustainable surfboard in the world.

James : 1:09:24

And so I've been working on those, on some designs with those guys over the last three and a half years. So we've got yeah, we've got the Waterbird model, which was like modded off that board up there, the Berswollatah, and then we've got a single fin, that Darcy, that's one of Darcy's models. Yeah, it's called the Mid-Length Magic. So, yeah, there's those two boards within the Veruna collection and you know there's other surfers involved, with other shapers involved sorry, like Bo Young and Jolfic, gerald Morris Cole and I think Jared Mel's involved now as well. Yeah, so there's a really bunch of really good crew involved with what they do. So, yeah, work with those guys. And then I work with another company called Dr Bronner's, which they're a soap company.

Shannon: 1:10:10

Oh, I've heard of them. Yeah, these are all natural products, isn't it?

James : 1:10:13

Yeah, they do like a toothpaste. They do all sorts of cool, like you know, good stuff for humans, like soap, toothpaste, shaving cream, all cleaning products and stuff like that. But it's more about like it started, like Emmanuel Bronner started the product because he was into like the slogan that we are all one. You know, he's like we're all one and he wanted to spread his message about we're all one and I guess he had some spiritual messages and he thought what's the best way to get this out there? And he's just. You know they already had some soap making in their family, I'm pretty sure. So they started making soap and then putting his labels of what all one encompassed on the label of the soap to get that out there.

James : 1:11:00

So, yeah, it's fully organic product and everything they use is like recyclable and stuff like that. They go to the full. They go to the full Monty with everything. Like they're amazing. There's such an inspiring company to work with and yeah, so they're kind of people that I work with in surfing and stuff like that and it's all stuff that I stand behind. I really believe in what they do.

Shannon: 1:11:21

Yeah, man, Wow yeah it's just good fun. Sounds like it dude.

James : 1:11:26

Yeah.

Shannon: 1:11:27

Yeah, yeah. Well, what's next for you? You think?

James : 1:11:32

What's next? Just more of this, I think, more painting, more sort of. It's just evolving. I'm just into evolving really, mate, you know, like evolving as a human and trying to, I guess, be better at being me and being a person and just being more accepting of people and more loving of people and just trying to work out the things that still hold me back a bit as well, always trying to work on those things and with other people, with other therapists and stuff like that, and also in my own ways as well, just to be happier and live a more blissful life and a more connected life, which I think puts us in a really good place and being in that place is really cool to share with other people.

Shannon: 1:12:29

Yeah.

James : 1:12:29

Because other people can get stucked off of it as well.

Shannon: 1:12:31

Yeah, for sure.

James : 1:12:34

So, and surfing definitely does that too, and you know skating probably does it for you.

Shannon: 1:12:39

I was going to say do you still skate?

James : 1:12:42

I don't march, mate? No, because I just don't want the injuries, because I want to surf every day.

Shannon: 1:12:47

Yeah.

James : 1:12:48

So I think I did skate up to probably about five years ago Quite a lot still, Because one of my son skates heaps and he's pretty good and so you skate with him a lot and just at Bruns and Mullum and stuff like that around here. But yeah, just the injuries. I was just like I just can't be out of the water for another two weeks. I'll hurt my knee or my elbow or whatever.

Shannon: 1:13:09

Yeah, yeah, and that's it. Like I actually don't recommend it to people my age who have stopped for long periods of time and then want to get back into it, like, and if they do, I'm always just like, you just got to take it really, really easy, but even then you can get hurt. You hit a little crack in the footpath and fall over. Yeah yeah, yeah it's like it's pretty brutal.

James : 1:13:31

But what keeps you going with it?

Shannon: 1:13:34

I'm in this mindset of if I stop now, I'll never restart, because I never really put it down Like skating was always my first love and then came surfing. Yeah. So I love surfing, and I'll do it for a long time, but I'm actually quite amazed that I can still skate. Yeah so.

Shannon: 1:13:50

I'm just kind of like I'm just going to ride this for as long as I can, but because it is so brutal on your body, it leads me, it forces me to do things like yoga, really good hydration, eating well, and I take supplements and it's a real motivator because I want to like try and just see how long I can keep it going for yeah. And I'm actually finding myself in this realm of like I'm not a great skater, but I get told regularly that you're good for 47. Yeah, right, yeah.

Shannon: 1:14:24

And this is like a new high form. It's like not great, but hey, for 46, 47, you're pretty good and like I never expected that. But there is a real resurgence of guys in their late 40s and early 50s who never really put it down and in some ways becoming like masters. They've just really refined so much, like you know, falling off your skateboard for 30 years, 35 years you really learn how to fall. Yeah, right.

Shannon: 1:14:51

And that's why I say to people like, if you haven't been skating for a while, like you know, you've lost the art of falling. Yeah.

Shannon: 1:14:56

And then another thing. Another thing about it too is it's like you become really refined with your movements. You're thinking about technique more. You're not. You're not trying tricks on ego, and you know if you're, if you're not going to make a trick, and you can start to predict when your legs are a bit sore, and you know that if you keep pushing you're going to hurt yourself. So you stop, so you're skating with much less ego, and I think that's why. And then also, like with surfing, like it is much easier on the body but the surfing's hard on your body too. But I sort of see that my goal is I want to still be surfing when I'm 80. Yeah.

Shannon: 1:15:27

You know, but with the skating I think maybe I've got another five, 10 years in me. Yeah, no. I've actually like and I I gauge that by how long can I Ollie, and how long can I flip my board? For when I stop flipping my board, I think, then I'm done, you're going to hang out with that yeah. But I really get off on. For me and I said this to you earlier today like it's not so much about skateboarding or surfing, I'm just really drawn to creative people.

Shannon: 1:15:54

And you know, when you see a really good surf surfing a wave creatively, it's so inspiring Like Craig Anderson, someone that I see really creatively surfing a wave, like yourself, my friend, mark Ridgway they're not trying to shred the shit out of that thing. They're just trying to make it look so pretty.

Shannon: 1:16:12

Then you have skateboarders too. Like I'm not attracted to the most technical skater who does the hardest tricks, I'm attracted to the guy that does the most simple trick but makes it look beautiful. And then often, when you get to know those people, so many of them are artists or photographers or videographers or sculptors or musicians. So I find for me personally, I get more of that from skate culture and that's what keeps me going back to it. And plus too, you know, with the podcast over the last five years now, I just get so much love from the skate community, more so than the surf community, so this keeps feeding my soul that way.

James : 1:16:50

Yeah yeah, Pretty cool Mm. It's really cool yeah.

Shannon: 1:16:56

So how you feeling, man? It's pretty hot in the shed. Yeah, it's bloody hot. What's in?

James : 1:16:59

the shed. Studio, it's in the shed, yeah, it's, but yeah, that's right, studio in the shed. Yeah, yeah, it's bloody hot for sure, but that was a good chat, man. I can't remember half the things we chatted about, but it's a bit of an artist's hub around here, right?

Shannon: 1:17:15

So you've got like you and you've got another artist next door and then another sculptor, you said.

James : 1:17:21

We've got like right. Yeah, I've got like my friends I share with right here. He's an Indigenous artist and then Can you say his name? I don't want to, probably not. I think he likes to keep pretty underground, yeah, yep, and then we've got two sculptors next to them and then a painter, then another painter, and then up top we've got a bunch of woodworkers and then in the middle section there there's about three photographers. So it's kind of like different layers of like the noise is kind of up the top and all the quiet stuff's down here, sort of thing. It's a good zone because you've got people you can go and sort of chat to at lunchtime or whatever in between and just share some ideas with or whatever, and shoot. You know, have those kinds of conversations. Yeah. Yeah, my mate at the end's got a ping-pong table, so that's kind of good for a bit of a physical outlet, and sometimes I just skate up and down here just flat on the concrete just to move the body.

Shannon: 1:18:07

Yeah.

James : 1:18:08

Yeah, no, it's a good little hub down here. Yeah, it's a good little community, I guess, of artists.

Shannon: 1:18:14

Yeah, nice.

James : 1:18:16

Yeah, it's good, positive, and yeah, it's fun.

Shannon: 1:18:19

Yeah, cool man. All right, brother, let's go and enjoy the afternoon. Cool man it's been a pleasure man hanging with you today.

James : 1:18:26

No thanks, so much, buddy, appreciate you.

Shannon: 1:18:28

Mr James McMillan, everybody.